Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320
- 337)
WEDNESDAY 1 MARCH 2000
MR IAN
BUCHAN, MR
PETER HENDY,
MR FRANCOIS-XAVIER
PERIN AND
MR NICK
BUCKLEY
320. How significant is the stop frequency?
My impression is that most bus system stops are much more frequent
than on most tram systems. Really should we be measuring different
systems with stop frequencies rather than the different systems?
As I understand it, even with the Leeds one, on those bits of
guided route the frequency of the bus stops will be less than
it would have been on the traditional bus routes.
(Mr Buchan) That is the case but they are more frequent
than would be the case with an LRT system. So it is an intermediate
position with a guided bus.
321. Does that stop frequency affect the people
who use it? If you are elderly, if you have small children with
you, you do need stops fairly frequently, you do not want to walk
very far, so should bus and light rapid be considered as complementary
or competitive?
(Mr Buchan) Again it is horses for courses, but certainly
there are cases where if the stop distances with an LRT scheme
are going to be fairly wide, then it is possible you would need
some residual bus service to cater for people who cannot really
walk the distance to get to an LRT stop, or you would need some
form of complementary bus service which was feeding people into
the LRT stops.
(Mr Hendy) If I may say, there is some practicality
involved because, as you have seen, modern LRT cars are quite
long, they are very large, and both in on-street applications
and elsewhere you have to be practical about how often you stop
them and what the effects of that are.
322. I understand the practicalities and they
must be, but we are spending a lot of time looking at the different
traction systems and what I am weighing up is, is it more important
to look at stop frequency rather than looking at traction systems?
(Mr Hendy) The truth is that all of the existing and
proposed UK systems will co-exist with bus services doing parallel
things because there clearly is a market for closer stop densities
for bus services.
323. Am I particularly odd in that I have been
coming down to London for many years and I can cope with the underground
network fairly well, I can just about cope with changing on the
rail systems to the south of London, but I find it still very
difficult to work out journeys which involve me changing buses
within London? Is it really true that somehow bus plans just do
not work, yet in so many cities there seem to be underground or
light rail systems where you have a map on the wall and it seems
to be something you can understand very quickly?
(Mr Hendy) If we take the position outside London,
which is easier for us to comment on, we are currently in the
major towns and cities we serve looking at a concept called the
"overground", which is to pick out relatively frequent,
high density bus routes and put them on a map in an understandable
manner in the manner of an underground map, and to say to our
passengers, "These routes will not change for a significant
period of time" in order to make a complex bus network easier.
But the trouble is you cannot have it both ways because one of
the strengths of the bus is that it is able to penetrate into
many areas. The bus network in London and other major cities is
of necessity very dense because the population is dense and demand
is dense, so you have to be a bit careful that you do not destroy
one of the principal strengths of the bus.
324. You are saying you have just started doing
it as far as maps for buses are concerned? Why has it not been
done much earlier?
(Mr Buchan) We have done quite a lot of publicity.
What we are now trying to do is very much significantly improve
that. I think we would have to accept that we have not been very
good at marketing our services in the past.
Mr Forsythe
325. Are you saying that there should be a central
operation in the centre of a city and there should be a different
type of system coming in to that centre? In Melbourne they have
a continuous tram system which runs round the centre continuallyit
is free incidentallybut the other trams and other vehicles
go over and bypass it. That seemed to be an ideal system because
it is very convenient, it takes you anywhere in the centre of
the city and you can get on to it at any point, bearing in mind
there has to be a space in between the stops. Do you think that
would be the ideal type of system?
(Mr Buchan) In a number of areas we do have what we
call a city centre hopper which does do that job. I have to say
they are not free in most cases.
Chairman
326. That comes as a considerable surprise to
us, Mr Buchan!
(Mr Buchan) But they are very reasonably priced!
327. That is not quite the same thing.
(Mr Buchan) No.
Mr Donohoe
328. As Mr Forsythe has said, in the middle
of Melbourne it is free to ride on these things, what capital
monies do you get, if any, from either local authorities or national
government? What monies in any of these schemes do you get from
the public purse?
(Mr Buchan) On average our network is 85 per cent
supported by the fare box. In most areas there is a provision
whereby the local authority or the PTE will put services out to
tenderlate evening, early morning or whateverwhere
we are unable to provide a commercial service. But, in the main,
85 per cent of our operation is commercial. As far as the new
schemes are concerned, these are usually done through local authority
quality partnerships which we have. There we will operate the
service commercially and we will provide state of the art vehicles,
the local authority normally through the local transport plans
from Government will provide the infrastructure improvementsthe
guideway or the bus priority measures, bus shelters and so onbut
in certain cases where we feel it is justified we will even give
a contribution to that. As I explained, in the Leeds York Road
corridor we are putting £5 million into the infrastructure,
we are putting £1 million into the infrastructure in a guideway
in Bradford, and we have a whole series of other proposals under
what we call twin track where we will contribute in the right
circumstances not only to the fleet of vehicles but to the infrastructure
to help kick-start these schemes and get them off the ground.
329. You have mentioned the £5 million
and the £1 million, what was the total cost and what was
apportioned to local government or national government?
(Mr Buchan) In the East Leeds scheme the operators
are putting £5 million into the infrastructure out of a £10
million project, so it is half. In the Bradford scheme we are
putting at the moment £1 million into a £7 million scheme.
In the other schemes where we are putting in, it varies between
a contribution which might be 10 per cent but in some cases it
can be up to 50 per cent.
330. What do you have to do to take that investment
in terms of the franchise, if any? If another operator came along,
would you accept they would be able to run on that system?
(Mr Buchan) We have to. That is the current climate.
We have no problem with that. On the East Leeds scheme, ourselves
and Arriva will use it, we have put £5 million in, if other
operators come along they can use it.
Chairman
331. I want to ask you what potential there
is in the metropolitan areas for converting existing heavy rail
into light rail?
(Mr Hendy) There is some. One of the schemes we regard
as being a pretty good is a scheme in Bristol which uses part
of a railway alignment. The proposal there is that were it to
go ahead then an extra two tracks would be shared between light
and heavy rail. That seems quite practicable.
332. Mr Buckley?
(Mr Buckley) I think there are one or two difficulties
converting heavy rail to light rail. One of them is that the stop
distances are much greater on heavier rail, so you have got to
infill for it to be a true light rail. There is the difficulty
of the platform heights as well. So there are cost implications
which are not immediately apparent.
333. You are assuming that that would be heavy
rail in the sense of an existing system still being in place,
but that would not apply, for example, if you had a line where
there had been a heavy rail but it had been cleared.
(Mr Buckley) That is true, like Midland Metro.
334. So you do see that it would be quite possible
but it would have all sorts of difficulties?
(Mr Buckley) There are difficulties. The stops tend
to be more remote from the places where people live than the road
which a tram could run on.
335. Are some of the routes presently operated
by levy rail franchises better and more cost-effectively served
if it is done by light rail?
(Mr Buchan) I think there are opportunities there,
yes.
Chairman: I want now, finally, to allow Miss
McIntosh to ask you one specific question and then we will allow
you to escape.
Miss McIntosh
336. This is a question to Firstgroup, being
an avid admirer of Transdev's excellent services in Strasbourg
in my previous life. Firstgroup have a fine network of bus services
now into York from the outskirts which, regrettably, have been
severely cut thereby reducing the numbers of people that would
normally take public transport. Can you give an undertaking that
if they were to establish similar services using light transit
rail they will not cut them at some future date?
(Mr Buchan) Yes, we can. As far as the changes to
the services are concerned, in every case these are negotiations
with the local authorities and in many cases where we have had
problems like this these will be tendered services where the local
authorities are short of money. Having said that, in York we are
growing the network, we are growing the patronage. It is growing
at between seven and ten per cent per month this year compared
with previous years. So we are growing the network and we have
other plans for development in York. I think the specific points
which you raise have related to the tendered network which has
been the subject of discussions with the council in York.
Chairman
337. Thank you very much. Gentlemen, you have
been extremely kind and very generous of your time and very helpful.
Merci mon cher Monsieur Perin. Vous êtes le bienvenue.
Au moins. Vous avez parlé au Parlement. Merci.
(Mr Perin) Merci infiniment, Madame La Présidente.
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