Examination of Witnesses (Questions 400
- 416)
WEDNESDAY 1 MARCH 2000
MR KEITH
HILL, MR
RICHARD BIRD
AND MR
MIKE WALSH
Mr Bennett
400. Crewe!
(Mr Hill) Inspiration has reached me again and we
have done some work in terms of the Leeds guided bus scheme which
is very promising of course which shows that journey times have
speeded up by one-third and passenger volumes have increased,
I was told today by the operator, by 65 per cent in the period,
which is a remarkable achievement.
Chairman
401. Yes, it is remarkable. Do you intend to
make that public in some form that is easily accessible by the
general public?
(Mr Hill) We have apparently published—what
have we published? Have we published these statistics? Let me
correct the record. The results of the research are in the public
domain.
402. Good. Can you tell us why you think light
rail seems to be much more successful in getting people out of
cars than other forms of transport?
(Mr Hill) It is a very interesting question and I
suspect the answer is partly in the realm of human psychology
and it is about what people call the bus environment and the unattractiveness
of the bus environment to your middle manager.
403. Are you guessing there, Minister, or do
you have any work in the Department?
(Mr Hill) I do not believe—
404. We know you have great psychologists in
your Department!
(Mr Hill) I do not believe there is any systematic
survey data on this. We will see if there is any. It is an interesting
proposition.
Mr Donohoe
405. If there is not, will you get it?
(Mr Hill) We will supply it to the Committee if there
is and I believe that there is such data.
Chairman
406. Thank you, that would be helpful. Do you
believe that there is any evidence that light rail systems are
more effective as economic development catalysts in rundown areas
than other forms of transport?
(Mr Hill) I think the evidence on this is not clear.
It is arguable that if the Docklands Light Rail scheme might be
described as a light rail project it has certainly been productive
in the significant regeneration of the Docklands area, but on
the whole there is no solid evidence on this, I have to say.
407. Has anybody got evidence on the Portland
scheme in Oregon which apparently had a very direct and clear
effect?
(Mr Walsh) There is a perception abroad certainly
that light rail is more successful in re-generating cities and
corridors than bus services are.
408. I go along with the perception, Mr Walsh.
What I am saying is can we ask if you have any hard evidence that
you can present to the Committee?
(Mr Walsh) We will check and see if there is any evidence.
409. Thank you very much. Are you satisfied
as a Government that the appropriate strategies are now in place
to promote the development of the light rapid transit systems?
(Mr Hill) Yes, and I think the evidence is there in
the outside world that there is a very lively interest across
the country in our major conurbations in the introduction or extension
of light rail schemes.
410. You several times very encouragingly mentioned
the local transport plans today. Is the Department doing anything
in conjunction with the government offices and various regions
to look at land planning or look at the use of specific areas
in order to encourage people to put that kind of input into transport
plans?
(Mr Hill) I think the answer is that the government
offices do work extra-ordinarily closely with the local transport
authorities.
411. Forgive me, Minister, your Department has
got another half to it. What I am really saying to you is are
the two halves of the Department working together to ensure—
(Mr Hill) Environment and transport in the regions?
412.—That in the regions this is given
high priority?
(Mr Hill) Yes, I believe that work is going forward
and I think that work is going forward via the government offices
in the regions.
413. We are not too impressed in this Committee
with Quality Partnerships as opposed to Quality Contracts. Do
you think it is going to be necessary to ensure that bus and light
rail services and ticketing are fully integrated by using Quality
Contracts?
(Mr Hill) We certainly do not think that Quality Contracts
are the sine qua non of joint ticketing arrangements, if
I might revert to another foreign language, even if a dead one.
Indeed, there is no direct relationship between Quality Contracts
and the joint ticketing regimes that you mention.
414. Or the assurance offered.
(Mr Hill) The Quality Contracts—where, as you
know, the Government is proposing to introduce an extremely steep
threshold in terms of their implementation—do not necessarily,
in our view, add to the quality of bus services in a locality.
Indeed, they reflect the failure of bus services in a locality
and do not necessarily guarantee that although there will be an
improvement that they would constitute bus services of the quality
of successful bus provision in other areas or, indeed I might
add, of the great success which voluntary Quality Partnerships
have already had in many parts of the country. There are 130 such
schemes up and running in various parts of the country and there
is absolutely no doubt that they have greatly contributed to the
significant increases in bus patronage, if we think of the leap
in Brighton for example of 18 per cent in bus patronage after
the introduction of the voluntary Quality Partnership there. Undoubtedly,
they have led this big increase in bus patronage in those parts
of the country outside London over the last couple of the years.
415. As you have yourself said Minister, there
are all sorts of solutions and all sorts of different responses
in different parts of the country so we may agree to disagree
on that. Finally, what work is the Department really doing to
encourage people to look at either converting existing heavy rail
or to look at the introduction of light rail systems in areas
over a certain population, or are you only being reactive? Are
you leaving it to local authorities to come forward with schemes
or are you consciously look at a forward planning regime that
would assume that if, for example, the hypothecation is to work,
local authorities must have in place alternative schemes and what
are you doing do stimulate that rather than simply react to people's
existing ideas?
(Mr Hill) Again, I am conscious of the time, but let
me give you a couple of brief answers. You will be aware that
the Government has now set up something called the Charging Development
Partnership which has brought together the twenty or so local
authorities who have expressed an interest in various forms of
congestion charging schemes. The first meeting was in January,
chaired by Lord Macdonald, and a second meeting has occurred,
to bring together local transport officials and locally elected
representatives involved in transport matters and DETR officials
to exchange experience and to widen knowledge and information
about congestion charging regimes and the public transport benefits
in terms of investment that can arise out of them. Central to
those discussions is actually precisely light rail schemes and
measures of that description. So that I think is a genuine proactive
move. A second genuine proactive move is the work we are doing
in terms of issuing guidance with regard to local transport plans.
That is about to come out. That clarifies and sets out exactly
the Government's expectations in terms of what we are wanting
local authorities to be coming forward with. We have already a
short time ago sent out a best practice guide to local authorities
which draws on what we deem to be the best local transport plans
so that these can act as a model for future submissions. We think
that is a positive and proactive step and that will of course
include transport plans which involve light rail schemes and other
sorts of significant projects but I have to say the underlying
philosophy—and I do not apologise for this—is that
the Government really does believe that it is in the end best
to leave local people to produce local solutions to local transport
problems and that actually is the approach we take. The answer
is, I think, that it is a bit of both but basically we want to
see the initiatives coming from the base rather than imposing
decisions top down.
416. Minister, we can see what a professional
you are and how your training in this Committee has stood you
in very good stead! We are tremendously grateful to you. We are
very encouraged and we will certainly give you very special billing
in our report. Thank you very much.
(Mr Hill) It has been a pleasure, Mrs Dunwoody.
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