Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 141)
TUESDAY 1 FEBRUARY 2000
CLLR GORDON
KEYMER, MR
MATTHEW WARBURTON
AND MR
MEL USHER
Christine Butler
120. You are not told how much but where it
is?
(Cllr Keymer) I think it is £50 million, is it
not?
121. Can it be identified, this extra element?
(Mr Warburton) We have been told that there is an
extra amount in the aggregate which is equal to the additional
cost to the Commission, but there is a huge problem in ensuring
that that is distributed to authorities in some kind of relationship
to the amount it is actually going to cost them at local level.
We are profoundly sceptical whether that can be achieved without
skewing the fee structure so that that then looks counter-intuitive.
Mrs Ellman
122. Does the Audit Commission have the ability
and the capacity to audit cross-cutting services, and things like
environment policy, or policies on social exclusion, where more
than one department is involved?
(Mr Warburton) To inspect them?
123. To inspect and to assess them, in terms
of its responsibilities?
(Mr Warburton) We are concerned about the arrangements
for inspection under Best Value, because they involve the Best
Value Inspectorate, under the Audit Commission, alongside OFSTED,
the Social Services Inspectorate, the Benefits Fraud Inspectorate,
and other players. I think it is fair to say that the arrangements
for inspection by the Best Value Inspectorate are still in the
process of evolving, although I think our assessment to date would
be that the Commission has made a very good start at dealing with
a very complex set of issues. So, to the extent that cross-cutting
issues cut across services but stay within the remit of the Best
Value Inspectorate, it is early to make a final judgement, but
we are fairly hopeful that things will be okay. Where cross-cutting
issues cut across the remits of several inspectorates, we are
much more concerned that the arrangements for co-ordination have
not yet been sorted out. If you imagine an inspection which had
to bring together the different personalities, approaches, cultures,
of OFSTED, the Social Services Inspectorate and the Best Value
inspectors, I think you can see why we are concerned that that
is a very difficult mix to make work effectively, and the Commission
does not have the clout to do it, at the moment.
Mr Cummings
124. The Chief Executive of the London Borough
of Camden is concerned that local government is being "inspected
to destruction", with the subsequent effect of diverting
resources from service provision. Do you believe there is a danger
that local authorities now face the prospect of being overaudited
and overinspected?
(Cllr Keymer) Very much so. I hope that one message
that does come through from our representation today is, yes,
there is a major risk, both in overprescription and, as I mentioned
at the beginning, in the cost of inspections. The whole idea of
Best Value is to create new ideas and new ways of running authorities,
and if those creating them are going to be under constant threat
of excessive centralised prescription then I think the whole exercise
will turn out to be a failure.
125. So basically you are saying that should
this continue, this overinspection, then it is certainly going
to undermine the creativity and innovation of local authorities
in dealing with Best Value?
(Cllr Keymer) Obviously, in the end, it depends how
it is used with the various local authorities. We mentioned earlier
on about the question of an overmechanical way of looking at things.
We seem to have had an idea that started being Best Value, which
was going to be to provide the opportunity for new ideas for running
the services, and that seems to be increasingly overborne with
Government prescription, which is basically, what the Audit Commission
is carrying out.
126. And do you believe that in time the requirements
for external inspections will reduce, or indeed cease?
(Cllr Keymer) We believe they should very much reduce,
because if a local authority appears to be doing its job well,
the whole idea of an audit of any sort, or inspection, is that,
if something is going smoothly, the more smoothly it runs the
less you inspect it; and, certainly, we hope that will be the
case. The fear is, of course, that once you get the inspectorates
in they will want to justify their existence and it will be very
difficult to change; so I think one has got to take an initiative,
very early in the whole process, to make sure that authorities
that are well run are rewarded by lower inspections, and therefore
lower inspection costs.
127. So you agree that local authorities can
be relied upon to undertake self-assessment?
(Cllr Keymer) Obviously, there will always be an inspector
role, like there will always be an audit role, but that must be
balanced with the way that the authority is perceived by the inspectors
and auditors, and if the authority is doing well then it should
be encouraged by fewer inspections.
128. Do you believe that local authorities have
the capacity to assess themselves, and can they be trusted to
do this?
(Cllr Keymer) I believe that there is an awful lot
of adverse publicity. I would say that 90 per cent, that most
authorities, including my own, do their best to provide a good
service to the public. That is why we are doing the job, and,
I think, where we do do that, we should be very much encouraged
by less inspection, less audit.
129. So you believe the Audit Commission should
be putting Best Value inspection out to competition?
(Cllr Keymer) Yes, I do; yes.
130. And how soon do you think this should happen?
(Cllr Keymer) I would have thought, as soon as possible,
because I think the only way that you are going to get the cost
of inspection role kept down, is by putting it out to competition.
The extension of the audit role to private audit companies, I
think, has had a great effect on keeping audit fees down, which
we were discussing earlier on, and I think that the same situation
arises with the inspection role.
131. Do you believe you would find a rear-guard
action being put forward by the Audit Commission, because of the
numbers of staff that had been engaged to deal with Best Value?
(Cllr Keymer) I hope not.
Chairman
132. The local authority improvement unit, you
are sort of redundant, are you not, really, if the Best Value
regime kicks in?
(Mr Usher) I do not think so. We run actually a wide
range of services, and I am acutely aware of the time, but if
you think about some of our other services, which are around the
learning from beacon councils, member development, manager development,
the National Training Organisation for local government, workforce
development, they all help to improve the capacity of local government
to better itself. And one of our programmes, which is called the
Local Government Improvement Programme, is actually all about
self-assessment, and 70 authorities have signed up for that, where
we use the skills and the talents found elsewhere in local government
to assist an individual authority to get better, looking at its
processes, looking at how does it engage its public, who leads
that authority, and how do they measure performance. Now we are
working quite closely with the Audit Commission on Best Value;
we see our role as encouraging radical and innovative improvement,
and also spreading best practice. When local government employs
10 per cent of the country's workforce and spends £75 billion
a year, we do not learn very well from one another, and we continually
reinvent the wheel. One of the roles of the Agency is to make
sure that knowledge will be spread, and we will be using new technology
to do that.
133. But, surely, that is really what Best Value
ought to be doing anyway?
(Mr Usher) I think so, and I think all authorities
want to improve, and I spend at least two days a month in authorities,
working with senior staff and others. I have not found one authority
that does not want to get better. What they do need, sometimes,
is just some help and some guidance. Best Value is a radical,
new approach, and for it to be embedded in the way that local
authorities work then I think they sometimes need just a helping
hand, to say, "This is what's happening elsewhere,"
or, "Perhaps if you did it in this way then that would be
much more beneficial for everyone;" and that, I think, is
a distinguishing role between ourselves and the Audit Commission.
Mrs Ellman
134. Has the right balance been struck between
inspection and improvement?
(Mr Usher) My opinion is, no. The equivalent funding
for the Improvement and Development Agency amounts to £11
million a year. I think there is somewhere in the evidence that
an extra £50 million is being given to the Audit Commission
for inspection for Best Value reviews. There is quite a big diversity
there.
135. I would like to ask both of you, how would
you characterise this Government's attitude to local government?
(Mr Usher) I think it is nervous.
136. Does it trust local government?
(Mr Usher) The amount of resources which are going
into testing the outcomes and process of Best Value seem to suggest
to me that not only is there a nervousness but that central government
is uncertain that local authorities will get to the end result
that they require. So, therefore, they need to make sure a third
party is around to do these inspections. I think that, ultimately,
that might be a mistake, because if you really want to change
and you really want continuous improvement then there has to be
a high level of trust, because mistakes will be made, but that
is the only way that you learn, through innovation and making
mistakes.
137. And do the LGA have a view?
(Mr Warburton) I think the relationship is like an
overanxious parent trying to teach a child to ride a bicycle and
not being willing to accept that you actually have to let go in
order for them to learn to ride. I think that is the problem.
Mrs Dunwoody
138. This is not a `letting go' type of Government.
(Cllr Keymer) I have to say, to answer your question,
briefly, it is quite clear that, in my view, the Government does
not trust local government, and that it is overcentralised and
becoming overbureaucratic, and will turn out to be overexpensive
for local government.
Chairman
139. So is local government more or less efficient
than central government?
(Cllr Keymer) I believe it is becoming increasingly
more efficient than central government, particularly in the question
of staffing and value for money for the beneficiaries, be they
local residents or national taxpayers.
(Mr Usher) It is very hard to measure, but my experience
is, and I have been on the national scene only since April of
last year, that most senior civil servants, in private, will now
admit that local government is better managed and more effective,
and certainly has more joined-up services.
140. Than central government?
(Mr Usher) Than central government, yes.
Mrs Ellman
141. Do you think you might be offering your
services to central government?
(Mr Usher) Perhaps we should turn the issues round,
Best Value first, before we move into that field.
(Cllr Keymer) I think subsidiarity is the answer,
Chairman.
Chairman: On that note, can I thank you very
much for your evidence.
|
