Examination of Witnesses (Questions 440
- 459)
WEDNESDAY 1 MARCH 2000
DAME HELENA
SHOVELTON, MR
ANDREW FOSTER
AND DR
WENDY THOMSON
Mr Blunt
440. Local authorities have expressed concerns
about the number of different inspectorates that are going to
relate to Best Value. How can you avoid a wholly uncoordinated
approach as far as local authorities are concerned with the number
of inspectorates that are involved with Best Value?
(Dr Thomson) I think everyone shares this concern.
There has been a Best Value Inspectorate Forum established that
includes six members of it, all responsible for Best Value Inspection
in local authority and Best Value authorities. All members are
on record stating their support for the forum and their aim of
working together and I think that has been a genuine commitment
that each has made. We will be shortly in a position to publish
the outcome of our last meeting where we did agree this Memorandum
of Understanding between the inspectors and the auditors that
will set out how we will work together. We have agreed a common
approach to the four Cs of Best Value so that there could not
be seen to be any difference in our interpretation of how that
policy is to work. We have also said how our working arrangements
will be similar. We will make common judgments, both on how good
the service is but also on whether the authority can improve.
For example, all the inspectors have signed up to that as well
as signing up to some common principles as to how we would approach
the work. I think that will give some assurance to authorities
of how we intend to co-ordinate our activities.
441. If you are an authority faced with having
to do, say, 20 Best Value reviews next year, every single one
of those will have to be inspected, and presumably they will go
to a whole variety of different inspectors bringing different
cultures to different organisations, to this whole myriad of performance
review: OFSTED, social services and obviously the list goes on
and on and on.
(Dame Helena Shovelton) Yes.
442. Could you give me some indication of how
much these Best Value reviews are going to cost? If you are conducting
20 as a local authority and they are going to take 20 days of
your time to review, that is not if you are an inspectorate which
says it may be as many as 50 days, how much will all that cost?
(Dr Thomson) The first thing to say is that the number
of reviews that the local authority needs to have inspected will
be entirely down to them to determine, by how many reviews they
decide to conduct themselves. Not all authorities will do 20,
some will do five, some will do six, some will do 50, it is for
them to decide how to organise their reviews in their own areas.
If they do 20 that places the burden of inspection at that level.
The overall cost of all the audit and inspection for Best Value
is £47 million.[2]
Best Value fees represent some 0.05 per cent of local authorities
total spending and although it is something we would want to demonstrate
very clearly that the benefits provided outweigh the costs, I
think it needs to be seen in the overall context of around £55
billion spend on local government services as a whole and the
need for the public to be given confidence that money is providing
the kind of local services that they expect.
443. £47 million is just across the Best
Value—
(Dr Thomson) Audit and inspections, both.
444. Can we just deal with the Memorandum of
Understanding you mentioned, what effect is that going to have
in practice?
(Dr Thomson) The first thing to say is that it will
begin to take force from 1 April when Best Value becomes a statutory
duty for Best Value authorities. We will evaluate how it works
in the first six to eight months of the year. How we would see
it taking force is the auditor, audit manager in each local authority,
along with the lead inspector which we would name, working to
this agreed arrangement so that every year they are very clear
what each other's activities are and that there is a sensible
organisation of which inspections are done, when they are done
and that they are done in a way that is sensitive to the demands
being placed on local authority staff, time and trouble. Certainly
the inspection programme that the lead inspector would be discussing
with the local authority, is one that we would develop in discussion
with them to try and support their own change programmes, their
own improvement programmes. If they would like more attention
given to one area than another, that is the sort of discussion
that we would expect to have. We would judge our success by our
ability to help authorities change as well as to give the public
confidence this Best Value Performance Management programme is
actually having an effect.
445. What about the question of whether different
inspectorates should be amalgamated to a single local government
Standards Inspectorate?
(Dr Thomson) Again, that is a matter for Government
to consider and determine. I think we are well aware of the different
statutory responsibilities that the respective inspectorates have.
The Social Services Inspectorate and OFSTED both have different
reporting arrangements and duties beyond Best Value that would
need to continue to be carried out. It would not be a simple transition
or change, I think it would be something we would be very aware
of.
446. I accept it might not be simple but here
you are as the lead inspectorate, the Audit Commission, what is
your view? You see this great mass of inspectorates around you,
what is your view as to whether we should move down this road?
(Dame Helena Shovelton) The Commission has not actually
formally taken any kind of a view on this. They are acutely conscious
of the need to ensure that life works in the smoothest, best and
most co-ordinated way and I think the staff have clearly heard
that message from the Commissioners.
Chairman
447. Most people are in favour of motherhood
and apple pie, are they not?
(Dame Helena Shovelton) I know, but we have worked
quite hard in terms of the Commissioners and the staff together.
I chaired the Best Value Panel of the Commissioners over the period
of the last year and this has been something we have discussed.
Both in the whole way in which we have looked at the inspection
process and the way in which we have asked for both the audit
and inspection forums to work and asked for reports back from
those to ensure that co-ordination is happening. Also that a lead
inspector is appointed for every single authority and their role
is to co-ordinate all inspections, to ensure that nobody goes
in and starts duplicating what has happened the week before.
Mr Cummings
448. Your document Seeing is Believing
sets a number of tasks that local authorities need to complete
during the Best Value inspection. Have you attempted to assess
in any way at all how much the local authority staff time will
be required in responding to the requirements of Best Value audit
and inspection?
(Dr Thomson) We are very sympathetic and conscious
of the time involved for local authority staff and their concern
about the burden placed on them for audit and inspection. In fact,
we have agreed with the Local Government Association to jointly
undertake a piece of work to assess exactly the time that would
be involved. Having said that, we have conducted 30 field trials
of this approach alongside authorities across England and Wales
so we have actually tried it out in practice. I think compared
with many of the inspections done in other parts of local services
the time that is involved in our process is quite short and is
intentionally so. I think continually we will be challenging ourselves
to ensure that the costs are justified by the benefits given and
the benefits should be continuous improvement in local services
and the public's confidence in local government in delivering
that continuous improvement.
449. Have you discussed the results of those
findings with the Local Government Association?
(Dr Thomson) Yes. The decision made very recently
to do a piece of work on the cost of the staff time involved with
complying with Best Value is something we are going to do jointly
with them.
450. We have been informed by other witnesses
that there is great concern that the burden of inspection will
impede authorities in relation to their provision of services.
Is this the case and, therefore, is there a danger that local
authorities now face the prospect of being over-audited and over-inspected?
(Dr Thomson) Certainly that would not be anything
we would support. One of the things we have said we will do is
assess this year how it has gone and what benefits have been gained.
We are absolutely committed, and certainly I have taken on this
role, to ensure that this performance management arrangement actually
delivers results for local people. It is in no-one's interest
to introduce a level of audit or inspection that is going to deter
the good management of local government and the quality of services.
There is no intention to sustain that and I think we will be in
a position to say one way or the other by the first six to eight
months of this year how it has gone.
(Mr Foster) If I could just add. I think we are very
conscious of how concerned people are about it. We are hearing
just the same messages as you and I think we can only intelligently
say we will try and learn and respond during the first six or
12 months, I do not know what we can say beyond that.
Chairman: I think that is enough at this stage
because we are getting short of time.
Mr Cummings
451. Do you believe there is an argument for
ultimately relying on some local authorities to assess themselves
and thus reduce the need for expensive inspections?
(Dr Thomson) The Commission has said that inspection
should be proportionate to risk and by risk we mean services that
are performing poorly or represent a significant expenditure or
are very important to the public, this is where we should put
most of our efforts. We are on record as saying that and that
is how our system will work. This year there are not any base
lines so it would be necessary to establish the base lines and
establish the track record of existing authorities and therefore
to inspect all authorities to some degree this year and perhaps
next year. After that we would be open to a lighter touch where
it was warranted.
452. You are saying to the Committee that you
would concentrate, perhaps, on the worst performers leaving beacon
councils for perhaps fewer inspections and less of your attention?
(Dr Thomson) What I said is that within the first
year we would need to establish which are the best and which are
not the best. I think at this point we do not have that base line
information but once we do we would be able then to customise
our approach, just much more in line with where it can do the
best good.[3]
Mr Benn
453. You have done a lot of work over the last
eight years to develop performance indicators which has been welcomed
by a number of those giving evidence. Do you think with hindsight
you have done enough to develop performance indicators that measure
outcomes?
(Dr Thomson) Yes. We would agree that outcomes are
the most desirable thing to be measuring and I think there is
quite a wide view that is the case. In practice generally, even
in Government, it is recognised that sometimes linking cause to
effect in measuring is not so simple. Our current suite of Best
Value performance indicators actually does cover outcomes and
particularly it looks at strategic outcomes as well as service
delivery ones in the new ground that has been introduced. In terms
of existing PIs some of them are outcome based, I recognise some
are not but some are. In particular perhaps I can mention two
older people over 65 helped to live at home. I think that is an
outcome PI that we have helped authorities to measure for many
years. Also we would point to the GCSE scores, the proportion
of pupils at 11 plus achieving three or more A to C GCSE results,
that is an outcome. It is not quite fair to say that there are
none but we would recognise the need to continue to develop more.
Chairman
454. What can you tell us about parks? When
the Select Committee looked at parks I think we were shocked to
find that the vast majority of local authorities did not actually
know how much park land they had got and yet you built up quite
a substantial report about parks based upon the areas that local
authorities vaguely thought they had.
(Mr Foster) I think we accepted the criticisms you
made of us and our regime at that time. I think particularly there
are a couple of reasons things that I would say why we did not
eventually pursue a Parks PI. One, we actually had a great deal
of difficulty reaching agreement with a variety of people as to
what an appropriate one was, people were saying it was notoriously
difficult to tie down. The other problem we find ourselves in
is one where on the one hand local authorities are saying we are
collecting too many performance indicators, which they do say,
and which we understand, but then when you get into specific service
areas people who are interested in specific issues are very keen
to say that there should be some and that development fell as
a result of that. To try and be positive, looking forward, we
have done a couple of things. One is we will be looking at that
in terms of Best Value performance indicators but perhaps most
positively in terms of your Committee's concern about parks, we
have developed a Best Value module for an approach as to how we
would inspect things about parks. We have in fact trialled that
over the last few months, I think expedited by the strong words
you had to say about it, in both Swansea and in Sutton and that
does mean that as the Best Value regime comes in we will have
an approach which will allow us to respond when local authorities
start looking at parks. It will mean that inspectors will go out
and look at parks, it means that we will be able to see what the
best practice is and it will mean that we will have better data.
I think we recognise your criticisms and are trying to do something
positive about it for the future of Best Value.
455. You now agree with the Urban Task Force
that parks can be a catalyst for urban regeneration?
(Mr Foster) I think we think that there are certainly
possibilities there. We are very much looking forward to working—
Mr Olner
456. Is that a yes or a no?
(Mr Foster) I think it is a yes. We are wanting to
work with the LGA, they are discussing it with you and others
about how these initiatives should be taken forward. I suppose
the qualification is that we want to fit in with the general development.
I think we recognise that we have a part to play in that and I
think there are serious possibilities.
Mrs Ellman
457. How do you assess the impact of corporate
approaches within local authorities?
(Dr Thomson) Again it is an area that we feel is critical
to any inspection of Best Value. One of the things we would expect
to see in a good local authority would be a clear sense of purpose,
corporate strategy and corporate direction as to where the council
feels it should be going and how it wishes to serve the community.
We have expressed that as a community plan but it can be called
many things. It is a clear sense of purpose and direction. If
that is present we are able then to inspect the services or the
reviews that they have done in terms of how far they go in achieving
those aims and objectives that are set locally and that is the
corporate context that we absolutely would find essential to do
a good inspection. Where there is not that kind of corporate context
it is much more difficult for us to have any good foundation on
which to judge whether their resource allocation and performance
is in line with their own aspirations. The first thing is to have
that corporate sense of policy and direction, that is what we
would hope to see.
458. Are you satisfied that you have developed
in an effective way the impact of corporate and cross-cutting
approaches rather than just looking at individual services?
(Dr Thomson) We are developing a module, a particular
approach to inspecting corporate arrangements. There is already
within the audit of Best Value performance plans an element of
that which looks at the corporate management arrangements for
Best Value. So inspection would build on that but perhaps take
it into a more detailed approach, looking at similar issues. We
have also learned from the work done by the Local Government Improvement
Programme, which itself is looking at very similar things around
corporate governance, which looks at leadership, community consultation
and performance management. I was involved in the development
of that approach myself and I would see the benefit of applying
it to our approach as well.
(Mr Foster) Just in terms of taking a cross cutting
view, we are doing something this year which is really new for
us which is looking across the services for mentally ill elderly
people in local authorities and health authorities and we are
doing that across the board and tying it back to what happens
corporately in a local authority. We think that is a very positive
way of going because it takes it back to what the users experience,
whether it was health service, local authority or whatever.
Chairman
459. How do you deal with the money going round?
If I can give you an example: I have several constituents at the
moment, elderly ones, who appear this winter to have tripped over
pavements which are probably unsatisfactory. Almost certainly
each of the pavement areas that were wrong could have been put
right for far less than the hospitalisation of an elderly patient
with a broken limb but it is health service budget and local authority
budget.
(Mr Foster) I do not think I have an immediate or
ready answer to that question other than to say I think we will
over the next five years develop more and more approaches that
go that way rather than down these different public services.
2 Note by witness: This covers the total gross
cost of Best Value audit and inspection in England, plus the cost
of audit and inspection in Wales and Best Value in The Home Office
in 2000/2001. Back
3
Note by witness: We do not feel at the moment that the
Beacon Council Scheme is well enough established to use as the
basis for lighter touch inspections. Back
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