Examination of witnesses (Questions 100
- 119)
WEDNESDAY 16 FEBRUARY 2000
MRS MAVIS
MCDONALD
and MR JEFF
JACOBS
100. How does your department quantify the key
outcomes that you have identified?
(Mrs McDonald) If I may make two points, one is that
some of the factors that we were describing in here, which relate
to deprivation and social exclusion, do occur in London and in
scattered pockets in the south-east as well, they are not just
features of northern cities or towns. Secondly, I know in the
way in which the local government system works that the area cost
adjustment and the balance is always a subject for major debate
during any changes to the system. Just referring back to the Spending
Review, there are two ways of addressing this, one is about how
you want your main programmes targeting and deciding whether you
want to be more specific about the outcomes in relation to deprivation,
which is one choice and one option open to ministers. The other
is having, as we have now, particular programmes which are designed
to make up the gap in certain areas.
101. I think we do agree this is an important
issue. Can I just ask you another question on another issue, that
is the New Commitment to Regeneration initiatives? How would you
say the White Paper would build on the positive response to that?
(Mrs McDonald) I hope that pilots and authorities
will have taken their work far enough so we will be able to draw
some positive lessons from that on what works and see how far
we can take the experiments on to the next stage.
102. When local and regional organisations have
developed the commitment to the regeneration initiative that is
consistent with the Government objectives, would the Government
sign up to it, for example?
(Mrs McDonald) I cannot commit ministers now. They
have accepted the principle that this is something well worth
trying and well worth piloting. They are seeking to get that coordinated
delivery at local level. It is part and parcel of policies that
they are adopting in modernising the local government agenda.
Mr Benn
103. You talked about the challenge a moment
ago of joint working across Whitehall, would you accept a much
bigger challenge for Whitehall is to let go and let local communities
make decisions about what their needs are and how best they can
be met? In that context, given the criticism that there is about
an excess of initiatives, do you think a single pot-where we pool
all of this money and allow single bids to come in-is feasible
and how could it be made to work?
(Mrs McDonald) I accept what you say about the need
for proper capacity for local participation in programmes which
are delivering at a very local level. I also think that ministers
would say it is essential to get the joining-up right at each
level of government, national and regional, which is what today
is about, and the local authority and below that at a neighbourhood
level. There are various strands of work going on addressing how
that might be done, so it is horizontal as well as vertical. In
terms of whether there should be a single pot, there are various
models that one can look at at local government New Commitment,
which we were just discussing. That is one possible approach.
A different kind of approach might be feeding money through other
strategic partnerships that choose which particular areas of deprivation,
if you are looking for deprivation money, might have access to
funds that were available for deprivation. Some of these issues
are currently being looked at in the Spending Review and by the
Social Exclusion Review. Whether that would mean that there would
never be any kind of single experiment with pots of money and
particular issues, I would not like to say. Ministers like to
try things out before they commit themselves, there might be particular
reasons why ministers might want to keep those options open.
104. Would you accept that if the Government
were to go down that road it is still possible for it to be as
rigorous as it is now about the outcome, as it wants to see it,
from the money delivered, but to say to local government, local
initiatives, local partnerships, these are the outcomes and we
are going to judge you on the effectiveness with which you achieve
them; however, how you put them together is a matter for you?
(Mrs McDonald) That is very much the principle that
the New Deal for Community programme actually adopts, the kind
of outcomes around that are closing the gaps on crime, on skills,
health and work. We ask the local community to work, in their
partnership, to say the precise things they will do and what their
targets would be to achieve those broader objectives.
Mrs Dunwoody
105. Do you not think it is all a trifle leisurely?
What kind of timescales are we talking about?
(Mrs McDonald) I do not think it is particularly leisurely.
The New Deal for Communities work is going on now.
106. I accept that. Some of the other things
you mentioned this morning—the desire to get in place any
sharing which means people can work together, "we will, if
needs be, look at a common pot", even the work we are waiting
for on PPG 3—are we not getting a tiny bit relaxed about
it? I do not get a feeling of great urgency, am I being unkind?
(Mrs McDonald) I think you are. The Social Exclusion
Unit are aiming to produce a draft of their Neighbourhood Renewal
Strategy for consultation in April so that they can say what the
final version of it will be after the Spending Review. A lot of
the other work they are talking about will be tied into the Spending
Review so far as we can. There will be some matters that will
take longer to work through because we are trying them out on
the ground and they take time to set up and evaluate. That does
not mean that policies cannot change and move on on a regular
basis as well. There is a lot going on immediately.
Chairman
107. There is a lot going on. Fiscal tools,
what is happening about that?
(Mrs McDonald) I think we are discussing with the
Treasury all of the recommendations that Lord Rogers made.
108. When you are discussing them are you discussing
them with the enthusiasm for them or against them?
(Mrs McDonald) With enthusiasm for some.
109. Which ones are you enthusiastic for?
(Mrs McDonald) We have been quite anxious to find
out more about how the local fiscal options might work and how
successful they have been. I know Treasury ministers have been
following some of those up in America as well. We have been discussing
with the Treasury, I do not think it is any secret, for some time
how changes in VAT might or might not work. I do not know anything
about any decision the Chancellor might make.
110. I am not asking about decisions I am just
asking which ones you are enthusiastic for.
(Mrs McDonald) Those are the main ones that look as
though something relatively workable could evolve quickly if ministers
thought that the policy was right. There are one or two others
that are more difficult; working through, for example, the effect
on the land and house prices and the regional differentials of
something like the betterment levy are much more difficult and
complex.
111. Do you want to add anything? We are talking
about your priorities, the Comprehensive Spending Review. What
in this area is top of your list?
(Mrs McDonald) Within the Department we are looking
across all of our spending.
112. I am not asking you about all, I am asking
you what is the most important thing that will make a difference
to urban renaissance.
(Mrs McDonald) If I may, the Deputy Prime Minister
would say that an urban renaissance relies very heavily on what
the DETR does, it is about regeneration obviously, but it is also
about the contribution of housing programmes, the contribution
of transport programmes and it is about the contribution to the
local and the wider environment that can be made. There is scope
through looking at our programmes, the volume of the programmes,
the way in which the programmes are spent, by whom they are spent
and the way in which they are spent.
113. All right. There is nothing that is akin
to urban regeneration?
(Mrs McDonald) I think there is a priority for urban
renaissance, as a whole, for the Department's works on the Spending
Review. Within that, obviously, how the regeneration programmes
are constructed, what volumes are in them, are critical, and the
continuing need to improve the quality of housing stock is a critical
part.
114. Finally on PPG 3, is that going to sort
out the problem about how much is going to get built on brownfield
sites? The figures I have here suggest that in the East Midlands
the draft regional planning guide proposes that they should only
come up with 45 per cent on brownfield sites. That must be unsatisfactory.
(Mr Jacobs) PPG 3 cannot, as it were, sort out precisely
how much is going to be built in different areas. PPG 3 can set
the framework in which some of the local decisions and local assessments
that I talked about earlier can and should take place. PPG 3 will,
as I said, reaffirm 60 per cent. That means, to take your East
Midlands example, we expect proposals for regional targets to
be tested against the Government's national target and for that
to be explored properly by the Regional Planning Board and by
the Public Examination.
115. So if the East Midlands was going to get
away with 45 per cent, some region would have to get much more
than 60 per cent. Could you suggest one that might have to get
much more than 60 per cent?
(Mr Jacobs) I know the Committee itself commented
before on the possibility of there being a 100 per cent target
in the north. I cannot rule on whether one should get more than
another because it is based on a presupposition about what should
happen in the East Midlands, which is yet to be tested at a public
examination.
116. The Rogers' Report really suggested that
unless we took some pretty quick, drastic action to enforce that
60 per cent we were not going get there, were we?
(Mr Jacobs) The first set of decisions coming up for
ministers are, as it is no secret to tell, in the south-east and
I would expect those decisions to be made in the not too distant
future.
117. "Shortly"? "Not too distant
future"?
(Mr Jacobs) That really is a matter for ministers.
118. Surely you must have a set of words that
you pick out as civil servants and there could be a timescale
fitted to them which would help mere mortals to understand them?
(Mr Jacobs) In relation to decisions on the south-east,
which has been much debated on the floor of the House, ministers
have made it clear they hope to reach a decision on the south-east
"shortly". I have offered "in the near future"
which is pretty much the same.
Mrs Dunwoody
119. Which Civil Service lexicon is that?
(Mr Jacobs) I only have two phrases.
Chairman: On that note can I thank you very
much for your evidence. Thank you to the Committee.
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