Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 194)
WEDNESDAY 8 MARCH 2000
MR MIKE
SHIELDS, MR
ANTHONY DUNNETT,
MRS HELEN
FARRAR AND
MR COLIN
MOLTON
180. Since you mentioned confidence, one of
the issues in those areas can be what we understand to be the
reluctance of financial institutions to lend because there is
a concern that property value will decline and people will get
into negative equity, do you see that as a difficulty? Do you
have any evidence of that?
(Mr Shields) I am sure there is negative equity. Certainly
in East Lancashire there are situations where people have bought
property and it is now almost worthless, they are out of work
or their income is very low, there are very low incomes generally.
There are enormous problems, they are just in between a rock and
a hard place. There is no way forward for them, somebody has to
step in and help solve that problem.
181. What impact has the abandonment of the
partnership investment programmes had on your ability to address
these?
(Mr Shields) Enormous. It adds seriously to the cost
of solving it. There is in places like East Lancashire and East
Manchester an enormous gap fund default. The gap between the cost
of doing whatever the solution is and the value of it at the end
of the day is significant. That may not be the case in other parts
of the country but it is the case in the North West and the North
East and lots of other parts of our urban cities. We had the ability
to work hitherto, before 22nd December, with the private sector
to share the costs of building private housing in North Manchester,
where there are examples on the ground of being able to gap-fund
private housing which has been successful and is beginning to
change the mix of activity in North Manchester. Our ability to
do that has stopped. What we are likely to have to do is take
a much more proactive role ourselves in direct development. We
are going to have to get in if clearance is required and we are
going to have to buy and pay for that, clear it and move the land
on to the market place at market value at great loss to the public
purse. That is the route we have to go down, at the moment there
is no alternative.
182. What is your priority when it comes to
the balance of development between brownfield and greenfield sites,
where do you see your focus?
(Mrs Farrar) In common with all of the other RDAs
we would always support brownfield development but there will
be occasions when it will be necessary to develop greenfield but
only when it is in the interests of vast economic benefits to
the region. There would have to be regional decisions. We would
always support development of brownfield as a priority. The only
thing I would say in terms of Yorkshire and Humberside—I
know you are from the area, so you will be familiar—is a
lot of our brownfield land is not actually in urban areas. We
have vast tracts of derelict collery sites on the best urban fringe
and most of them are in rural areas. It is actually quite a simplistic
statement to say, "We can build our new housing on brownfield
land", it is not that simple, because it is scattered around
and we have to be very creative and flexible in how we use it
best.
Miss McIntosh
183. In your memorandum, Yorkshire Forward,
you say, "Wherever possible the RDA are committed to developing
brownfield sites in preference to greenfield sites." Bearing
in mind the RDA is not a planning authority itself what pressure
can the RDA bring to bear to encourage local authorities to develop
brownfield sites in preference to greenfield or even greenbelt
sites? If I can pray in aid two local examples, there are moves
to develop parts of Harrogate Borough Council which are greenfield
sites and there are brownfield sites within the Harrogate Borough
which would be preferable to that. Even more regrettable is the
fact that the park and ride scheme has been moved from within
the City of York on to what was a greenbelt site, that upset a
lot of residents. I gather that now the traffic is moving so far
back on the A12 that it has added to the traffic congestion problems.
They should have left the park and ride site on Clifton Wall.
I hate to say this, but we told them it was going to add to traffic
congestion. Bearing in mind, Mrs Farrar, you are not the planning
authority what pressure can you bring to bear to actually show
there are better sites that could be used than greenfield?
(Mrs Farrar) I am not particularly familiar with the
examples you have chosen, however I am sure colleagues will answer
that question on a national level. There are a number of things
we can do, firstly, our relationship with the local authority
is very important. The RDAs are influencing bodies as well as
funders and promoters of schemes. Our relationships with local
authorities are very important. We are in the process, at the
moment, of developing subregional action plans within the various
subregions. For instance, there will be a North Yorkshire Action
Plan in total consultation with the Regional Assembly and the
local authority in North Yorkshire. If we start to build up those
relationships and start looking at those issues on a subregional
basis with those local authorities we can look at it on that basis.
On individual sites one of the things at the moment—I think
I am right in saying—is that RDAs are not currently statutory
consultees in the planning process. This is something that needs
to be looked and which we need to be more involved in, where we
can influence planning decisions at an early stage and where we
have a regional perspective on the development of our regions
and the sites within it. We have to start to influence some of
those localised decisions that you are talking about.
(Mr Molton) If I can add to that, one of the other
issues is the RDA's role in removing some of the development constraints
on the more difficult sites, service provision, primary infrastructure,
etc, to enable these sites to be brought forward more quickly.
Also, of course, the bigger challenge is to make the towns and
cities more attractive places to live so that there is a true
demand for housing in towns and cities.
184. Can I say on that point, do you accept
that greenbelt is more attractive and it should not be built on?
(Mr Molton) I think there are ways of making towns
and cities much more attractive places to live in terms of cultural
facilities, accessibility issues and accessibility to employment,
et cetera, which are very important factors.
Mr Blunt
185. Mr Dunnett, what policies should be adopted
to deal with the development pressure on the South of England?
(Mr Dunnett) Can I first make a comment, the South
East is a tale of two regions. As Mr Ladyman will know, there
are 2 million people in the South East who are not in a wealthy
area and the economy of Kent and East Sussex is very similar in
size and difficulty to the North East of England. We do have huge
areas of pressure in and around London. There are two answers
to that question, however you asked me specifically about the
areas of pressure, which are those nearer to London, as opposed
to the areas of substantial need, which tend to be along the coast.
With respect to the areas of pressure close to London, the key
issue in the South East is that 80 per cent of the total number
of new homes which are required across the South East are for
smaller units, that is one number, half of those are for affordable
housing, so approximately 400,000—announced by the Deputy
Prime Minister yesterday—are for small affordable dwellings.
The issue in the South East is working to have a change in the
planning guidance—and other PPGs—which presumes in
the South East the way forward for housing should be for smaller
units. We have no difficulty selling four bedroom houses in the
South East, and the building fraternity will say the market want
it, but what is happening is that people are emptying out of London
into the South East region because the quality is not good enough
in London and the product is not good enough in London. First
we have to invest in London. We are very supportive and there
is a tremendous amount of investment in London. We have to make
London a more attractive place so that people do not migrate out
and confuse the problem in the South East. The South East has
a tremendous need, a huge need, to meet the present requirement
of its present people. In the South East and London only 7 per
cent of the total number of houses required are actually because
of migration from the North to the South, the 93 per cent is all
to do with meeting the needs on the ground for people who are
here. The first point is to recognise we have to change and provide
for a completely different shape. The RDA in the South East has
been vociferous in saying we should be going for 65 per cent on
brownfield sites, knowing how difficult that is. The issue in
the South East is actually valuing every potential single penny
packet, small size housing site. We do not have large tracts,
generally speaking, in the areas of pressure. We have to free-up
every small area possible within the urban environment. We have
to provide for efficient and effective CPO mechanisms and quick
and appropriate mechanisms to be able to assemble those sites
such that the urban framework can actually provide the basis to
allow smaller in-fill development, which is traditionally very
expensive, and will also require a tremendous amount of Government
support, financial support to make it happen.
(Mr Molton) In the South West the position is slightly
different. The RDA is tackling the problems of market and costal
towns, investing in its principal urban areas and particularly
focusing on area based regeneration in five principal urban areas
in the South West. There is an issue about the amount of brownfield
land which could be reused for housing development in the South
West and the regional planning guidance says that is targeted
at 37 per cent. The RDA has set itself a target of improving on
that figure and we use some other initiatives to try to make sure
that figures increase, such as looking very, very closely at surplus
landholdings, for example the MoD and other statutory undertakers,
and we are quite convinced that there is land to be identified
which could be used for brownfield site redevelopment.
186. Does that mean you therefore believe the
development pressure that is undergoing in both of the regions
should be deflected into those parts of your regions—the
2 million people you refer to, Mr Dunnett—in parts of Kent
and elsewhere in the south coast towns? Is that what your policy
should be?
(Mr Dunnett) You cannot force people to migrate into
different areas. Clearly, what we have to do with the people who
are suffering in those economies that are under-performing is
to provide the same regeneration challenges that are in other
parts of the North, as in providing new futures for those towns,
providing employment creation, improving the quality of life in
the Hastings, Folkstones and the Isle of Wights of this world,
such that they become an attractive place for people to establish
and grow. It allows us to take the pressure off, if I can put
it that way, from the West End of town and Thames Valley by providing
a product which is as attractive, similarly located close to London
but hitherto has not been an attractive location for people to
set up and do business for those who want to work at this gateway
to the UK.
187. Through those type of policies you are
trying to deflect investment into those parts of the regions that
require it.
(Mr Dunnett) Absolutely right and that is a fundamental
part of our regional strategy.
188. That would, presumably, work on a national
basis? Should the South East RDAs encourage businesses to relocate
or invest in other regions of the country that are in greater
need of regeneration that in the South East?
(Mr Dunnett) I think the issue is that where we are
losing businesses—those who inward migrate will come primarily
to the South East—if they do not come to the South East
they go to Berlin, they go to European capitals. It is an expensive
option for people coming to the South East, basically they are
coming here because of the closeness to London and the access
to transport. We actively work with other parties around the country,
we are not here to compete with other regions in the United Kingdom.
Chairman: I think I will have to cut you off
at that point.
Mr Brake
189. You have talked about the need to facilitate
in-shore development, Mr Dunnett, how would you go about selling
that in a suburban constituency like my own, where the only person
who is in favour is the householder who is selling off part of
their back garden at an enormous price?
(Mr Dunnett) Two matters, we are working through area
investment frameworks, where we are pulling together local authorities,
local partners and the local and national agencies with local
community groups to set the framework of action over the next
five to ten years. We have clearly only been here for 11 months
and we have started discussions in East Kent on this sort of issue
to pull together as many partners as possible to buy into the
concept of thinking forward. These issues are about a ten year
and 15 year programme, they are not a two year quick-fix. What
you are asking about takes a long time. The fundamental issue
is getting local community groups and key stakeholders involved
early on to get involved in active and effective participation
in the discussion of what should be the shape of the community.
If I may remind the Committee, the need for housing is for the
people who are presently living here and that is the issue.
Mrs Ellman
190. What should be done to improve the coordinated
delivery of Government initiatives in the region?
(Mr Shields) There are a number of matters we have
talked about today which can help answer that question. The urban
regeneration companies, for example, are a vehicle for better
coordination. The priority areas are certainly potentially that.
The PIU report, which points to the Government Office having a
wider role across Government and then being able to coordinate
more effectively, is something which we generally welcome. If
we work closely enough together with the GOs then we achieve better
integration on the ground. There are, perhaps, one or two areas
where the Government might review the actual delivery and responsibility
and try and rationalise even further. If I go back to an SRB—
Chairman
191. I do need a very short answer.
(Mr Shields)—which was established, it was a
radical change, from 20-something programmes to one. Now we have
SRB and New Deal, take those two, for example, they overlap enormously
in terms of their objectives, not necessarily on the ground, they
should be brought together and integrated so that that whole raft
of funding can be brought to support community needs.
Mrs Ellman
192. Who should they be integrated under?
(Mr Shields) The Regional Development Agency, of course.
Mr Blunt
193. When you are examining businesses coming
into the South East region are you able to identify those who
are making a decision between investing in the South East or another
region in the United Kingdom and those who are making a decision
to invest elsewhere?
(Mr Dunnett) Very much so. If I can take the issue
with respect to companies from the US, 50 per cent of companies
from the US have as their short list the South East or London.
We work cooperatively in an interrelationship with London. We
are looking for an opportunity which is one offering, it is the
customer who chooses where they want to establish. To be honest,
we do not actually compete in the South East with the majority
of our colleagues across the country. We have a very different
offering, it is an expensive offering. There are no grants, very
high salaries, people come here because of the particular advantages
of the South East. We do not compete for large manufacturing and
employment creating opportunities and we do not seek to compete.
194. Should you be in the business of attracting
investment that is going to create the demand for housing that
is then going to be imposed on local people who do not want it
because they want to make a decision about the quality of life
that they follow? They are happy with the economy as it now stands
and happy with the environment as it now stands and do not want
it to be undermined or made worse by a large number of houses.
(Mr Dunnett) Our regional strategy is very specific.
I did say we had a tale of two regions, on the coastal areas where
that is not typified we have the greatest number of poor houses
in the South East region than any other region, other than London,
and that happens to be along that 2 million strip. In the areas
of pressure, to which you are referring, the whole strategy of
working with economic partnerships is to attract businesses which
are knowledge based, which are going up the value-added chain
and not taking a large footprint of the land. We have a second
issue, which was raised earlier this morning, about the need we
have for essential workers and housing for essential workers.
That is another debate, the question of affordable housing for
essential workers, which does not necessarily relate to your question.
Chairman: I will have to cut it off there. Thank
you very much for your evidence. Could we have the next witness,
please?
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