Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460
- 479)
WEDNESDAY 22 MARCH 2000
THE RT
HON RICHARD
CABORN MP, THE
LORD SAINSBURY
OF TURVILLE,
MR DAVID
EVANS AND
MR PAUL
MCINTYRE
460. Very successful over a 20 year period?
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) Very successful scientifically
over a 20 year period.
461. That is right. The fact that at the present
time you are dissipating a cancer research unit and various other
units and the staff are leaving at great speed is not going to
have any effect upon the scientific excellence or the development
of the north-west?
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) There are two quite separate
issues here. One is the scientific issue and one is the question
of clusters. As far as the scientific situation is concerned,
there are some good scientific arguments for saying that this
particular machine should in the future be located alongside the
Neutron source and the other facilities at the Rutherford Appleton
site.
462. That is a very small view of a very tiny
group of people, all of them with direct connections with the
south-east.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) No. This is the view
of some very senior and important scientists.
463. We could swap names. I have here five pages.
How much information would you like?
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) I would quote to you
what I think is the important evidence here, which is where we
got together the main Synchrotron users and a few of the Neutron
source users—
464. You also took advice from non-users for
some reason.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) We took advice from I
think two Neutron source users whose work was very related also
to the use of the Synchrotron and we actually had a consultation
with them. That information we will let you have in due course.
465. Perhaps quite quickly, my Lord, because
if you have both the breakdown of the finances and this irrefutable
scientific evidence I am sure everybody would be most interested
in it.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) It is very important
evidence because this was the one bit where we got a group of
people together to consult them specifically on this issue.
466. People outside the Wellcome Institute?
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) Yes. These were selected
as being the main users of the Synchrotron and their view was
interesting and clear. It was that by and large the physicists
did see advantages. The biologists were less interested and thought
that less important. It is also the case that both the Wellcome
Trust and the French government also believe that on balance the
scientific case was for putting it at Didcot, but not overwhelmingly.
467. You could give us written evidence of that
of course because the French embassy have said the opposite. I
do not suppose they represent French scientists.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) I can give you only the
views of the French government. The person involved in this who
is the minister of education and science, who is the person we
mainly have dealings with, is a very distinguished scientist himself
but we can let you have evidence about his views and those of
the French government.
468. My Lord, does it occur to you that if you
are going to put forward a policy that is going to be seen to
be credible—let us be kind—then you will have to demonstrate
the effect in practical terms. On the first major hurdle, your
Department has failed disastrously, has it not?
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) On what particular issue
have we failed?
469. Daresbury.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) If the question is what
are the implications in terms of the regional economy, which I
think was your second question, which is separate from the scientific
one, I think you have to look at what are the implications of
this kind of machine in terms of the local economy. Can I make
an absolutely fundamental point about this? The way this particular
kind of science, which is very basic, looking at the structure
of matter, works is that scientists come from all over the country.
They spend a couple of weeks doing their experiments—
470. And then they go away again so that it
attracts a lot of scientific support.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) What it attracts is individuals
who go there, do their research and go back.
471. I think they are called scientists.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) They go back home and
the particular scientific knowledge resides not in Daresbury but
in the universities.
472. They do not talk to anybody who is there;
they simply come in, use the facility and go?
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) No. Clearly, the people
at Daresbury have a great deal of expertise on the workings of
the Synchrotron and also on the design of experiments. You will
find though I think that that has not a great deal of impact in
terms of either businesses coming to those areas or in terms of
spin-off companies. In this context, I am very aware of the implications
in terms of the people who work on the site on their jobs but
in terms of—
473. I do not think you need worry about them
because they are leaving as fast as they can. Three of the carcinoma
team have gone this week. (Lord Sainsbury of Turville)
In terms of its impact on the regional economy—which is
really in three categories—one is attracting business to
it; secondly, working with businesses in the development of activities;
three, in spin-off companies. I think you can over-estimate the
impact—
474. So you do not think the provision of the
only Synchrotron in the United Kingdom within a particular region
would attract scientists or scientifically based companies?
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) No. By and large I do
not think it would.
475. It does not really matter where it goes.
It could go to the other part of France. There would not be a
problem.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) If the question was regional
development—
476. My Lord, you have said to us that one of
your policies is that a cluster of economic development, however
you define that—you seem to think it is only individual
companies and no government involvement at all—could take
place in particular regions where there was some kind of science
based industry; but you say in the same breath that of course
the loss of the Synchrotron in Daresbury would have no effect
on the economic development of the north-west because, after all,
it is a facility that could go anywhere and they do not talk to
anybody when they come there.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) I think we do need to
look very carefully at what kinds of scientific activities will
have a real impact.
477. You do not think that the people at this
facility have any connection either with the universities in Manchester,
which you yourself have mentioned this morning, funnily enough,
or in Keele or in Liverpool? You do not think that has any effect?
You do not think it sends any signal to the scientific community
that, as far as you are concerned in your Department, the north-west
is an area which is outwith the convenient circuit of those who
like to have nice places to live?
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) The facts are that Daresbury,
because of its reputation, has contact with scientists in practically
every university across the country.
478. So it will attract a high quality of scientists
to the north-west?
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) No. It attracts scientists
to go to the particular facility of Daresbury. If what you are
interested in, which is what I assume you are interested in, is
jobs—
479. I think we are interested in truth and
sensible policies, my Lord.
(Lord Sainsbury of Turville) What at least I am very
interested in, as far as the north and the north-west is concerned,
is jobs and high quality jobs for the future. That will by and
large come from other activities—
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