Examination of Witnesses (Questions 586
- 599)
WEDNESDAY 29 MARCH 2000
COUNCILLOR JIM
MALLORY, MS
JOYCE MARKHAM,
SIR MICHAEL
LYONS AND
MR ED
WHITTON
Chairman
586. Welcome to the fifth session of our inquiry
into the Urban White Paper. Please would you identify yourselves
for the record?
(Cllr Mallory) I am Councillor Jim Mallory,
representing the Local Government Association and I am from the
London Borough of Lewisham.
(Ms Markham) I am Joyce Markham, Chief Executive of
Reading Borough Council and I represent the Local Government Association.
(Sir Michael Lyons) I am Michael Lyons, Chief Executive
of Birmingham City Council and I represent the Society of Local
Authority Chief Executives.
(Mr Whitton) My name is Ed Whitton. I am an officer
with Birmingham City Council and Secretary of the Urban Policy
Panel of SOLACE.
587. Do any of you want to say anything by way
of introduction or are you happy to go straight into the questions?
(Cllr Mallory) Perhaps we could make some general
comments that may anticipate some of your questions. Thank you
for giving us this opportunity to address you. On the Urban White
Paper, it should be seen as a whole vision and not just as something
that concerns the Department of the Environment, Transport and
the Regions. In other words, we need a joined-up approach to regeneration
at central government level and at local authority and community
level. That means going beyond the basic issues with which the
department deals. We look forward to the White Paper enabling
the Government to develop a vision that reflects the changing
needs and aspirations of people who live in the urban environment.
We want to ensure that it recognises the difference between rural
and urban parts of the country, so that the country is preserved
while attracting people back to inner city areas, and so that
it makes it fashionable for everyone to live in inner city areas.
(Sir Michael Lyons) My thrust is broadly the same.
The White Paper should relate to the whole of government policy
rather than to any one department. It should concentrate on providing
the context for sustainable communities. We mean that in the broadest
sense. In particular it should provide us with the wherewithal
for those cities to compete in an increasingly complex world setting.
If it does no more, it should emphasise the legitimacy and commitment
to the urban dimension and require all agencies—local and
central government—to recognise that strand in their planning
and future work.
Chairman: With four of you at the table, if
you agree please do not repeat what has been said, but if you
disagree please say so quickly.
Mr Forsythe
588. Sir Michael, your organisation says that
the White Paper should be "bold" and should "cultivate
a broad appetite for change". How exactly should that approach
be implemented in the White Paper?
(Sir Michael Lyons) In part, that is to contrast it
with the situation in 1978 when a White Paper promised much, but
delivered much less. As we look back over that period and the
years since then, although there have been many urban initiatives,
they have never been drawn together enough, and they have never
had the strength of commitment that we would want for the future.
We are strong advocates of the contract approach and the recognition
that communities need to be empowered to find their own way in
the world. That is not just a job for local authorities, although
we believe that they may play a leading role in that, but it draws
together different agencies at a local level, working within a
clear national framework, but with powers and resources to make
the urban areas more attractive in which to live and invest.
589. On the evidence so far, are you confident
that the Government intends to take a bold approach?
(Sir Michael Lyons) To be honest, we have some anxieties
about the likely shape of the White Paper. At times there have
been doubts as to whether the White Paper would appear. I think
we are now confident that it will. We can see evidence in the
work of a number of government ministries that there is a commitment
to urban areas, but we are still waiting for that evidence to
be drawn together and given sufficient priority in the Government's
overall programme.
(Mr Whitton) In the White Paper the Government needs
to tackle head-on the "silo" mentality of the various
departments.
Chairman: This Committee gets rather upset by
phrases like "silo mentality". Can you put that into
slightly clearer English? We are being televised and someone will
probably watch this late on Sunday night who will want to know
what on earth the "silo mentality" is.
Mrs Dunwoody
590. Not to mention the Committee Members!
(Mr Whitton) I simply mean each department more or
less doing its own thing outside of the support context and perspective
of other departments.
Mrs Dunwoody: You do not mean putting human
beings into silos, in which case they get smothered!
Mr Stevenson
591. SOLACE say that they want urban renewal
to be "aligned with a national economic strategy" to
promote economic competitiveness. How should that be achieved?
Have you any comments to make on the embryonic RDAs in that context?
(Sir Michael Lyons) I shall start with the RDAs. In
general, SOLACE has welcomed the establishment of the Regional
Development Agencies as a step in the direction of providing a
more decentralised approach to governance in this country and,
therefore, providing the communities with their own way to compete
effectively, particularly in a European context. Other European
countries have much more autonomy at regional, city, state and
local levels. There would have to be doubts about the way in which
things have started. The RDAs do not have the full range of powers;
they do not have the full range of departmental support that may
have been anticipated for them, but it is too early to say whether
they will be successful or not. The evidence that I have seen
from around the country suggests, as you may predict, that it
will be fairly mixed. Perhaps later I may say more about the Birmingham
experience—as we talk about more local experience—but
I do not want to rush into that. What are we looking for? We are
looking for a recognition, particularly within the cities of this
country, but also for the urban areas, that there are different
industrial structures, different opportunities, and that they
are not best pursued or facilitated by a national policy. There
is no question of competition between local and central government.
The job of central government is to provide overall direction
and a framework, but we argue that that should provide enough
freedom for individual cities and towns to be able to take advantage
of their own opportunities and to deal with their own problems.
If you ask me to cite local experience, at the moment we are preoccupied
with matters in Longbridge.
592. On RDAs, which clearly are important, are
you saying that there needs to be a strategy adopted by the RDAs
to recognise sub-regional identities within their regions as well
as regional identities?
(Sir Michael Lyons) Yes, indeed. More than that, it
follows directly from the evidence that we are offering you that
the Government should instruct RDAs and other agencies to recognise
the importance of the urban dimension in their strategies. The
first draft prepared for the West Midlands failed to mention the
role of Birmingham a city of a million people at the heart of
the region . That seems to be an extraordinary omission. That
has been included in the second draft. That is not meant to be
a criticism of the RDA. The problem that it faces is balancing
the needs of different communities. I know that I have not answered
the specific question which went a step further in terms of guidance
to RDAs. Could you remind me of that?
593. Should there be more emphasis on the sub-regional
contexts of RDAs as well as on the regional identity in the light
of what you have said?
(Sir Michael Lyons) The answer is yes, because those
sub-regions differ so much, but also because the RDAs are new
organisations and it would be very regrettable if they had to
re-run the learning of recent years which is already operating
at a sub-regional and local level.
594. My next question is to both organisations.
However, I quote from the written evidence of SOLACE, which says:
"Public surveys repeatedly show that community safety, quality
education and health provision, housing choice and employment
opportunities are priority issues for the public". Therefore,
that obviously needs to be delivered, as well as value for money.
If local authorities are to play their significant role in delivering
that agenda, is the present system of local government finance,
which discriminates against many urban authorities, an obstacle
to that objective?
(Cllr Mallory) I would not disagree that it discriminates
against urban areas. I am not clear about the nature of your question.
595. Let me give you an example. In my experience
if you want to talk to people about how much per head each pupil
receives in a primary or secondary school—education is mentioned—and
you go to some other areas of the country that I could mention
but I shall not, you will find a difference of many hundreds of
pounds. If the agenda is to be delivered, do you think, first,
that the present local government finance which is discriminatory
in certain respects towards urban areas is an obstacle and, secondly,
what should the Government do about it?
(Cllr Mallory) I agree that it is an obstacle. Our
concern has less to do with the disparities. The formula certainly
needs to be revised. The way in which it is revised is something
that needs a lot of careful work because there are different kinds
of discrimination.
596. Could you suggest ways in which your association
would want to see it revised, if you accept that it is an obstacle?
(Cllr Mallory) We would want to ensure that the factors
that go into the disadvantages are carefully worked through. There
is regular disagreement in different parts of the country about
what those should be. Our concern, as it affects urban regeneration,
is that we already have, for example, the housing revenue account,
which is a distinct and separate account and it is difficult to
transfer pots of money into the regeneration fund. Quite often
bits of regeneration management can be dealt with only by housing.
Education money—witness the last Budget—increasingly
is ring-fenced for schools. We need, certainly at local level
and possibly at regional level—we would need the help of
the RDAs—to find a way of ensuring that money that is needed
to develop particularly deprived areas, no matter in which area
of the country, is just seen as schools money—in other words,
to deliver on schools in inner cities. Often one needs money to
support parents to be better parents in bringing up their children.
Our concern is more with making sure, so far as regeneration is
concerned, that the funding is across the various departments,
both nationally and at the local level.
(Ms Markham) It is also essential that attention is
given to capital finance rules and how local authorities can use
and invest capital receipts. We think that it is very important
that local authorities have the opportunity to invest upfront
in things like schools and transport to help to create the right
environment for regeneration.
597. How would you describe "business clusters"?
How would they work and how would we achieve them? How would that
be done in an urban area as distinct from a greenfield site in
which someone may want to invest?
(Sir Michael Lyons) All that we are seeking to draw
to your attention here is the way that the world actually works.
It is not a suggestion; it is not a new phenomenon. Companies
cluster, but within any industry there is a spatial advantage
in locating yourself close to others who are engaged in a similar
activity. Then you see in operation informal networks and the
development of a skill-base that serves that industry. It is very
important. They are not unique to urban areas, but they are a
dimension of urban life. If you are seeking to improve national
economic competitiveness, you have to recognise that those networks
exist and have a spatial dimension. It is part of the argument
of saying that there is something precious about the towns and
cities of this country. We do not believe that has been adequately
recognised in government policy and the flow of resources, and
it is about time that it was.
Dr Ladyman
598. Councillor Mallory and Joyce Markham, in
those answers that you have given to Mr Stevenson you seemed to
be talking about the way money was being used, but in your written
evidence there is a hint that you think that enough money is being
put into urban areas if only it were channelled correctly. Can
you clarify that? Is extra money needed or not?
(Cllr Mallory) Extra money is needed in certain areas.
In terms of our mainstream budget, we need greater flexibility
in order to be able to redirect money into certain areas. There
are aspects of urban regeneration where more money is needed and
they are not necessarily totally within the remit of local authorities,
for example, transport. On issues dealing with urban regeneration,
traffic flow and supporting public transport so that you can reduce
traffic flow into cities, that certainly is helped by Government
through whatever means, private or public, but it is not within
the capacity of the local authority finance to deal with that.
We need greater freedom and flexibility in the partnerships into
which we enter. The urban regeneration issue is one that we have
cited. With greater support we could well do it on issues such
as transport, but I do not think that we would ever suggest that
we have enough money. There is certainly much more economic use
that can be made of existing funds, provided we get the funds.
599. Perhaps I can play back to you what I think
you have said to see whether I understand. More money would be
nice, but the key thing is the way in which you are allowed to
use what money you have.
(Cllr Mallory) On transport, more money is more than
nice, but greater flexibility is vital for the rest of it.
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