Examination of Witnesses (Questions 620
- 627)
WEDNESDAY 29 MARCH 2000
COUNCILLOR JIM
MALLORY, MS
JOYCE MARKHAM,
SIR MICHAEL
LYONS AND
MR ED
WHITTON
Mr Benn
620. Turning to transport, there has been some
criticism of local transport plans for continuing to put too high
a priority on new road schemes. Will that change?
(Sir Michael Lyons) We are clear that Government would
like less emphasis on new road schemes. It is now no longer possible
to use European money for road infrastructure. There is a danger
of throwing the baby out with the bath water. In concentrated
urban areas we often have road systems that were laid down many
years ago and if you want to bring about regeneration that can
be helped by small-scale road improvements such as bypasses. In
the city of Birmingham we have two pressing cases within the city
where bypasses would greatly improve shopping/residential areas.
SOLACE broadly supports Government's commitment to see less emphasis
on road building, but we have an anxiety about throwing out the
baby with the bath water. As we open up the issue of transportation,
our main concern is to bring much higher levels of investment
for a co-ordinated approach that brings road public transport
and rail more firmly together.
(Cllr Mallory) From the point of South East London,
which lacks the Underground, we welcome the arrival of the Greater
London Authority, which we hope will eliminate some of the strategic
issues around transport. However, there are big city areas where
the historic roads have not assisted traffic in and out of the
city. In the case of London, the roads have been circular rather
than radial, so there is a problem in attempting to resolve some
of those issues, even if you lean more heavily on buses and other
public transport. Yes, we favour fewer road schemes and more investment
in other forms of public transport but there are some exceptions.
621. Do you see road user charging as a way
of generating significant amounts of money? Do you feel as local
authorities that you are getting a lead from the Government on
that, or do you sense that you are on your own?
(Ms Markham) I certainly feel that as an authority
we are keen to work in partnership with the Government in looking
at workplace charging in particular. We are very much at the sharp
end of trying to set a climate of trying to get business in particular
to accept that controlling the way in which people use our roads
and parking spaces at work is a major issue. I would welcome any
approach that the Government are able to take in setting out a
national climate for that debate. It feels at the moment as though
we are out on our own in trying to hold that discussion. For our
local politicians that causes a huge amount of flak and angry
debate on which I am sure they would welcome some assistance.
622. How do you make the link between those
possible means of raising money and the question of urban regeneration?
(Ms Markham) For me, on the sources of raising money,
the argument that we take locally is that it enables us to put
up some upfront investment particularly on public transport, congestion
management and priority routes for buses. Those are quite small-scale
changes that we believe can make quite a lot of difference to
the attractiveness to parts of our town for urban regeneration
projects. We feel it is very important that that investment, particularly
in public transport, comes upfront rather than lagging behind
urban regeneration.
(Cllr Mallory) There are small improvements that do
not include the revamping of the rail lines that would make it
more attractive to travel to and from so that we can get people
off the roads. There needs to be joined-up thinking.
Mr Forsythe
623. SOLACE suggests that the White Paper should
identify precisely how more affluent residents may be attracted
into new mixed inner city areas. How should more affluent residents
be attracted into such developments?
(Sir Michael Lyons) The recommendation is in line
with Lord Rogers' report in the belief that our cities and towns
can only be sustainable if they have mixed communities. That affects
the quality of services available, the quality of political life
and everything that is influenced by that. There are grounds for
real optimism. If you look at our big cities at the moment, for
the first time in 20 years you can see a return of an interest
in city-centre living. Birmingham has more than 5,000 units of
housing that are planned to be built in the city centre. There
is movement. How do we explain that? We would argue that there
has been latent demand for some time. There has been a failing
by the house-building industry to recognise that taste for city-centre
living. It has been enhanced by us improving the environment in
the city. There is a lot further to go, particularly in issues
of personal safety and education. The quality of city-centre schools
and issues of personal safety are two of the most prominent policies
that need to be tackled. It is about making cities into "buzzing"
places where things are happening. I am sorry to use that shorthand
but I think it conveys the message of a place that has a future.
We feel that government emphasis on urban policy can contribute
to that, but it cannot create it. It is a matter for local players
and particularly local investment to achieve.
624. What changes should be made or suggested
in the White Paper to housing policy?
(Sir Michael Lyons) I think Lord Rogers' report gives
the right direction: the importance of avoiding segmentation of
different classes of housing, looking for mixed communities, not
that that is not without its tensions. One is not naive about
that. Coming back to the core message, which I think we are jointly
putting to you, we need a sense that the life of a city or a town
as a whole is being addressed through national and local policy.
(Ms Markham) Perhaps I can add another dimension.
If you look at a lot of continental cities and towns that have
thriving communities in their centres, developers and investment
houses have a strong faith in mixed development including retail,
leisure and housing all as part of the same complex. You can talk
to developers on the Continent who will happily do that; you ask
them to deliver that in the UK and they say that they cannot get
the financial backing for it, there is no demand for it and there
are a thousand or more reasons why it is not achievable. I certainly
want the Urban White Paper to set a clear framework for that.
Not only is that achievable in the UK, but it is also very desirable.
(Cllr Mallory) It also means that there are far more
single people, quite often affluent people, living by themselves
and that has generated a demand for higher density housing. A
consequence is that they may well work in the city and if there
were better public transport they would not need cars, or even
two cars, and there would be less parking which would assist the
density issue. It underlines what we have been saying in that
the affluent can live next to the less affluent provided the range
of other support systems is there. That includes the health authority
and the police as part of that development.
Chairman
625. SOLACE seems to be worried that too much
emphasis is going into neighbourhoods rather than larger areas.
Would you briefly deal with that point?
(Sir Michael Lyons) Yes. I shall cite an example from
the Birmingham experience to underline that. Our concern is not
that there should not be a proper focus at the neighbourhood level.
The experience of urban policy in the past 20 years shows that
very often that brings about some very real positive results and
gives us the ability to engage communities effectively and brings
that sort of holistic view that we have argued for. The weakness
that we are arguing against is doing that in isolation. Any neighbourhood
is part of a bigger system, and if you do not take account of
that you could end up doing more damage than good. Birmingham
set out its intentions to work, taking individual regimes, SRB,
city challenge etc, to work area by area to deal with different
areas of deprivation. When it found that it was unsuccessful with
its first attempt to secure funding for one of the big municipal
estates on the edge of the city, that generated enormous feelings
of jealousy and gave a further spin to the unhelpful notion that
Government was only interested in the inner cities and their high
proportion of black and ethnic minorities. It can be very divisive
to pick a particular neighbourhood without recognising that it
is part of a bigger system. Our recommendation is straightforward.
You should tackle it at a neighbourhood level, but only in the
context of a city or a town plan.
626. You want the total regeneration of Birmingham
rather than its neighbourhoods?
(Sir Michael Lyons) I would like to see the regeneration
of Birmingham's neighbourhoods on a consistent and fair basis,
taking into account the whole city.
627. On that note, I thank you very much.
(Sir Michael Lyons) Could I offer a supplementary
note from Birmingham on the matter that Hilary Benn raised about
transportation? I believe that we have the evidence that you would
find interesting.
Chairman: That would be very helpful.
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