Examination of Witnesses (Questions 640
- 659)
WEDNESDAY 29 MARCH 2000
RT HON
ESTELLE MORRIS
AND BARONESS
BLACKSTONE
Mr Stevenson
640. On exactly the same point about funding
and standards and so on, Minister, you said earlier on that you
could not justify the SSA and the Green Paper will arrive this
summer. Given the undoubted importance of the whole of the education
spectrum in regeneration and quality of life, which is what we
are talking about, and the importance of local authorities in
that process, would you be prepared to offer any view as to whatever
changes are made to the system of finance and whether that should
be, as seems to be a trend that is developing, directly from government
bypassing local authorities, or be directed through local authorities
given their crucial role in regeneration of the whole quality
of life?
(Estelle Morris) It would not be proper for me to
jump up and say what will be in the paper. I would not want to
do that. We see a very clear role for local authorities. In terms
of a word we do not want to use, joined-up local and central government,
I think that clearly they must have a role in raising standards
as well. What we would want is greater clarity because I think
as well, as the SSA system being unfair, it lacks clarity at the
moment and schools sometimes do not understand where the money
has gone because their budget does not match the headline figure.
How we achieve that clarity you have given two models, one to
fund it through the LEA and one to fund schools directly and it
would not be appropriate for me to comment on that.
641. I understand that. Perhaps I could rephrase
the question very quickly before the chair stops me. Given the
crucial role that local authorities have played and will play
in the regeneration of their areas, as shown by the Urban Task
Force Report, and how important education is as part of that,
do you recognise how important that local authority activity is
and how important, therefore, education is as part of that local
authority activity in the regeneration process?
(Estelle Morris) Yes, I do.
Mr Benn
642. One headteacher in my constituency said
to me recently when I visited the school, "It's not that
our kids are any less intelligent but they lack self confidence
and aspiration." Can you tell us how Excellence in Cities,
which the school is now benefiting from alongside others in Leeds,
is going to address that issue?
(Estelle Morris) I think that analysis is right. You
do know if you have taught in inner cities, which I did for some
years, two things, one, that children are as bright as anywhere
else and, two, that they have got to overcome more barriers than
children anywhere else to achieve that potential. There are a
number of strands. One of the problems facing teachers who teach
in the inner cities is they have to be more than a teacher. If
they do not watch it they become a pseudo probation officer, a
pseudo social worker, councillor, advisor and family help, and
those are the children who most need more teaching and more of
the teacher's time and teachers often find their time dissipated
in doing social functions. I know that if children bring in those
problems with them at the start of the day they have to be dealt
with and the teaching cannot start until they are. The learning
mentor strand of Excellence in Cities where certainly the schools
in your constituency would probably have the lion's share of the
money in the EDIC area—
Chairman
643. If you can try and avoid the jargon.
(Estelle Morris) I did it twice in one sentence for
which I apologise. In the Excellence in Cities areas the learning
mentors, I think that is what they are called, could actually
do some of those tasks that have fallen to teachers. One way of
raising pupils' esteem is to work with them to overcome the problems
that sap their self-esteem. If I can take one more strand, I also
think the gifted and talented scheme as part of Excellence in
Cities is important as well. I think for too often we have said
that if a kid is bright they will succeed despite the school and
the second thing we have said is that inner schools have enough
on their plates with dealing with the many children who have special
educational needs. That is where their attention must be and they
have not got time to coach the gifted and talented. I think when
you have got an initiative where it is a government and a school
and a local authority giving that top-line message that there
are children in this school, whether inner city or elsewhere,
who are gifted and talented and need the support to raise standards,
that introduces into the school a feeling of high aspiration and
a feeling of what is possible.
Miss McIntosh
644. Returning to this vexed question of joined-up
government, could I just ask with the announcement that the Government
has made of City Academies does that mean City Technology Colleges
have failed?
(Estelle Morris) I think they have had some remarkable
success, the 15 that were set up under the last Government. I
think they have done a lot to re-engineer teaching and learning
and I think the three that I have now had the chance to look round
you could not fail to be impressed by the way they have used information
and communications technology to change the way that teachers
teach and the way that pupils learn. I think when they were set
up there were some in-built inherent problems. In nearly all areas
they created surplus places. To go back to Mr Benn's point, exactly
what we feared happened; schools withered on the vine because
they did not have the facilities and they did not have that level
of capital and revenue investment. That meant they ended up closing
and we would not want that. As ever, what we want to do is take
what worked out of City Technology Colleges but match it to what
we want to do which is turn round failing and struggling schools.
645. Thank you. Could I turn to the question
of the Fresh Start initiative. Is it the Government's intention
that this will be a simple marketing ploy or is it intended to
make a positive contribution to restoring confidence in failing
schools amongst the staff and indeed the parents? Does the Minister
have a view as to why three heads recently resigned from Fresh
Start initiative schools?
(Estelle Morris) It is not a marketing programme at
all. It is a genuine attempt to try and turn round schools which
have probably failed for decades. We just have to remember what
these schools are. They are not the run-of-the-mill urban school
that is struggling. They are actually the most challenging schools
in this country where for almost decade after decade children
have gone there and not reached their potential. They are exactly
the schools that suffer from urban flight, the schools that often
find it difficult to recruit and retain staff. Working there is
the toughest job in schools today. I think we have to remember
that. I think what happened in the past was there was a wish to
push them under the carpet and not address these needs and what
the Government has done has been very up-front and said if we
are serious about raising standards for every child in every school
including inner cities we have to do something about these failing
schools as well. The minute you say that public attention is focused
on it and that is right but let's not pretend that the school
has not been quietly failing to achieve and deliver goods for
children and staff in the years before. I thought this might be
raised and I thought it might be useful to comment on the ten
that have started, three in September 1998, six in September 1999
and one in January 2000. They were all in special measures and
all the sort of schools to which Miss McIntosh is referring. Three
heads are no longer there and I will come back to that. I thought
you may be interested to know that in each of the schools that
started in the first tranche every one of them has seen an increase
in results in the five plus A*-Gs and every one of them has seen
a decrease in unauthorised absence. In Fairfield, absence is down
from 6.9 to 3.2 and in the King's School down from 13.2 to 8.5.
That never got the headline and it has been in the press for five,
six, seven days running. I want to pay tribute to the staff who
managed to bring about that turn round in a short space of time.
Why they failed I suspect is because sometimes we will get it
wrong. In a task as challenging as this, I suspect sometimes the
heads and teachers will take on jobs they will not want to continue
for very long or will not be able to deliver what they had hoped
to be able to deliver. Three have left. One the OFSTED report
has shown she offered good leadership and she has now gone on
to another job in education. If you compare this with the world
of commerce, a struggling company will sometimes get a new boss
for 18 months and they will sow the seeds and move on. I do not
think it ought to always be a sign of failure. I think governments
have got a choice. We have taken on openly a difficult task and
I suspect that we will fail to turn some of those schools around,
but I would sooner do that and have an element of success than
not face up to the issue which meant that another generation of
children failed.
Mrs Dunwoody
646. With respect, the 18 month person who comes
in and does a job which enhances their career but not necessarily
produce results and then moves on is well-known. They usually
end up at top of the tree before they are found out to be incapable
of doing anything. Could I point out that that is not necessarily
an advantage. What you have today set out is a series of fragmentary
projects. You appear to have a project for inner cities, you appear
to have a project for failing schools, you appear to have a project
for city technology colleges. Are we not in danger of getting
ourselves into a "pick and mix" situation and instead
of education being planned as a coherent whole, it is a series
of projects that happen to be convenient and if they do not work
are abandoned?
(Estelle Morris) Can I put on the record where the
head did move on after 18 months at the Fairfield Community College
the five plus A*-Gs in 1997 were 43 per cent and in 1999—
647. With respect, I am making a genuine point—
(Estelle Morris) What you did say—
648. 18 month people are well-known in public
service—indeed, dare I say it, some of them can be found
in politics—where people will use the machinery of whatever
they are doing in order to promote their own careers and then
disappear.
(Estelle Morris) That might be the case. I wanted
to put on record that she chose to move on to an education action
zone. What I am interested in is what was achieved at that school
while she was there. I am not questioning her motives for having
left after 18 months. I just wanted to acknowledge that I was
pleased that the five A*-Gs went up from 43 to 74 per cent. It
has not quite doubled, my maths tells me, and I am not complacent,
but in fairness to those kids and the teachers who work with them
I would just want to acknowledge that. I do think there is a danger
that we suffer from initiative-itis and although central government
might see some grand master plan if you are working there in the
thick of it you do not see it as that. I tend to think we have
to work harder as a government to enable our partners in the education
service to see the initiatives as being joined together and not
separate.
649. Who are we talking about? Who are our partners?
(Estelle Morris) Teachers, governors, parents, the
wider community, local authorities. There are initiatives like
Literacy and Numeracy and the National Grid for Learning and Information
and Communications Technology that apply to every single school
in this country and, if you like, there is a baseline. What we
have tried to then do is to say there is a baseline about our
education standards agenda. Because of Mr Gray's very first question
there are some schools and some children that need more than that.
What we have got is a range of initiatives that come into more
than that category so Fresh Start and City Academies are two ways
of trying to tackle some of the most difficult schools in the
country. It does build on our basis. I do not want to be complacent
and I do think we need to be clear about how initiatives fit together
because if you are a hard worked teacher you do not always have
time to read newspapers to work out how they do fit together.
650. Is it not that you get fed up with fashions
in education just as you do in health or anything else?
(Estelle Morris) May I just answer that. I think this
is genuinely difficult for government. What I would want to do
is learn from what works and to some extent City Academies is
trying to learn from what works in Fresh Start. You have a choice
of either saying, "We will not try to do that any more because
we got a few days bad publicity", or you try to learn from
what works. I would be really disappointed if we said, "Let's
sweep that initiative away and not do it any more." What
I am pleased about is that another announcement is saying, "This
worked from it. This did not. Let's try and improve the elements
that did not work."
Miss McIntosh
651. The Secretary of State announced last week
the so called additional £60 million to "underpin the
Fresh Start and City Academy programmes . . . for City Academies,
we intend that the money will partner the voluntary and private
sector contributions that will be made." Is the Government
saying that none of the £60 million will be given out unless
matched funding is found? The second question is where exactly
do you see this voluntary and private sector contribution coming
from and how easy do you think it will be to tap into?
(Estelle Morris) We have not made the final decisions
yet. The Secretary of State will issue a prospectus for City Academies
after Easter inviting interested parties to work with us. We have
not got a plan that the money will then be released with matched
funding. I think some of that money will be made available for
existing Fresh Start schools. So it will not all go into inner
city academies. The Secretary of State will want to announce that
in due course. We have already got many private sector sponsors
who have worked with us in education action zones and on the Specialist
Schools initiative so increasingly I think the will is there from
the private sector to work with us to raise standards. I suppose
all I can say is that we have been led to believe there will be
individuals who will want to work with us. I think I am right
in saying that immediately after that announcement a businessman
who has already worked in education in the North East did announce
his willingness to work with us on City Academies when we issue
the prospectus. We have not got a formula for matched funding
for that now.
652. The announcement from the businessman was
to the tune of £2 million, the Government is contributing
£60 million, so that leaves quite a substantial shortfall.
(Estelle Morris) We have not announced the partners
at the moment. We announced the amount of money because that was
secured in the Budget. I think it is proper we do this in a planned
way. It is about three or four weeks until Easter and the Secretary
of State will then issue a prospectus. I think that is better
than having some sort of free-for-all. Mr Vardy, the gentleman
from the North East we are talking about chose to make a public
statement at that point to say that he was interested. I think
when the time comes to judge the success of the invitation will
be when we see who responds to our prospectus after Easter and
I am optimistic than more than Mr Vardy will respond to it.
653. Do you not think you have done a lot of
damage to inner cities by letting the phrases "inner cities"
and "failing schools" run too often together? What are
you doing to emphasise that within some of the inner city areas
there are some remarkable schools?
(Estelle Morris) I think you are absolutely right.
You might have noticed that today I have tried my best to use
different words and it does not always work. I have tended to
talk about "schools in challenging areas" and it sounds
awful. I do worry about attaching "inner city" to the
term "failing schools" partly because it excludes loads
of failing schools in other areas as well and that is a real issue.
I tend to use the term "under-achieving" because I think
that is better. We have got to celebrate success more than we
do. Recently I was at 10 Downing Street at a lunch time reception
that followed a seminar the Prime Minister and Secretary of State
held with those schools who have made the most progress over the
last two years.
654. Even "most progress" implies
something was wrong before.
(Estelle Morris) I think something was. What I would
say is that if a school, as some of these schools did, and I take
the primary school in Hackney, at key stage 2—the figures
are not necessarily absolutely accurate—were getting 30
per cent two years and 80 and 90 per cent now, then I take my
hat off to the head and the teachers but I do draw the conclusion
that two years ago they were under-achieving.
655. But there were some schools that two years
ago in those sorts of areas that were doing extremely well, were
there not?
(Estelle Morris) They were but by having an improvement
indices (which is a very rough and ready form of value added)
we do try and take the opportunity to celebrate their success.
What many of the heads told me at the reception at Downing Street
last week was that that was the first time they had been singled
out for praise. Although we want to celebrate excellence and those
who get the highest results, we have had a whole range of initiatives
to celebrate improvement as well.
Dr Ladyman
656. I cannot resist asking one question about
some of the comments you made earlier about schools which you
have now called schools in challenging areas and about handling
bright children. My own education authority gives no choice. You
have grammar schools and secondary moderns and there are no comprehensives
worthy of the name in the whole of Kent. When you have schools
in challenging areas in Kent they are almost always secondary
moderns and in the blink of an eye become sink schools. How does
that system deal with the problems of those sorts of schools in
challenging areas?
(Estelle Morris) That is your analysis of the effect
of the selective system in Kent. Given that the Government's policy
is to quite clearly leave the future of selective education to
the parents of the area, honestly, unless I am pushed on it, I
would sooner resist going down the debate on grammar schools on
this occasion.
657. I think that is a cop-out, but never mind.
In the exchange with Mrs Dunwoody earlier you have talked about
various initiatives. How have Education Action Zones helped or
hindered the process of pulling those initiatives together?
(Estelle Morris) I think they brought in extra resource.
I think they have brought in people to work in Education Action
Zones who have something to contribute. I did an Education Action
Zone conference in Liverpool recently. I have never ever been
to an Education Action Zone where there has only been teachers
or educationalists—the business partners have always turned
up, the health authorities have always been there—so I think
it has genuinely enabled people from different local authority
departments as well as the private sector to work together and
it has been a lever to bring in other expertise. Another advantage
is that it has been a lever for co-operation between schools.
Being a head is a lonely job and if you are a head of a school
in an inner city area, it is an even more lonely job, and one
of the comments I have had from schools in Education Action Zones
is for the first time they are beginning to share expertise. I
think the fourth thing the money has brought is new ways of doing
things and even things like breakfast clubs which I visited in
a Birmingham Education Action Zone seemed to be bringing about
better attendance and better motivation for children. The judge
and jury is out on their success in raising educational standards.
OFSTED are going to evaluate that for us. I am not complacent
but quietly pleased with what I have seen on the ground, although
it varies a lot between Education Action Zones, I have to say.
658. I have to say that being a head of a secondary
modern in a challenging area where people do not even want to
be in an Education Action Zone is even lonelier but because you
do not want to go down that route I will not go there at the moment.
Early results from the Education Action Zones? Have you seen any
raising of standards, any indications?
(Estelle Morris) The key stage 2 results in Education
Action Zone schools last year, if you averaged them all out, were
two per cent better than the national improvement so we were pleased
with that.
659. One of the things the Urban Task Force
indicated was where there were going to be new housing developments
in urban areas schools should be opened early in the development.
Have you got any views on that?
(Estelle Morris) I am not sure we have quite got that
right yet and I am pleased that that is one thing the Urban Task
Force will look at because the whole way of how we fund for new
places, if we do not watch it, becomes historical because of what
is known as the January form seven count. When you open a new
school and you have got all the consultation on it and funding,
I know that in some areas the school comes much later than the
houses. I do not think I am knowledgeable enough about the planning
process to see how that can be improved, but I am vaguely ill
at ease that we have not got our procedures right and there does
tend to be a period when it is difficult for local authorities—
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