Examination of witness (Questions 800
- 819)
WEDNESDAY 12 APRIL 2000
THE LORD
FALCONER OF
THOROTON
Chairman
800. I am glad you brought that back up again!
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) It seemed to have a particular
appeal for you!
Mr Forsythe
801. So that is actually strengthening?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) It strengthens it if the
Government Offices are then perceived to have more clout with
headquarters.
Mrs Dunwoody
802. So you are going to give them back their
money and their clout and you are going to make them much stronger,
and you have the Treasury right behind you and they are going
to make it very clear?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) When you say "give
them back their money", I am not sure—
803. This is what has happened, they have been
losing money.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Things like the TECs,
which people inside the Government Offices presently help to run,
are going to be dealt with by the New Learning and Skills Councils
so that is a function taken away, but that does not affect the
basic proposal which is to build up their role as the authoritative
voice of Central Government in the regions.
Mr Forsythe
804. I cannot see how you can actually weaken
someone's functions and say you are strengthening it at the same
time.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) The role that the PIU
Report envisages for the Government Offices is not the role of
dishing out the money from Central Government, it is the role
of being the eyes and ears of Government and the co-ordinator
of the implementation of Central Government in the regions. Simply
to take away here or there a particular performance function does
not affect that basic premise of the Report.
805. You say you are going to making them more
flexible. How are you going to do that?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) More flexible means in
a particular region how they may most effectively achieve the
delivery of Central Government policy will vary, because in some
regions there will be very little need to co-ordinate because
the local partners themselves have got together in an effective
way and know how best to deliver, and in other regions they will
have to have a more proactive role, but it will vary from region
to region. No one size fits all.
Mr Benn
806. The attention which the Government has
given to try and target resources where they can make the most
difference is something which, certainly in the area I represent,
is widely welcomed. May I just say in passing it is a great improvement
on what went before. The feeling I get talking to people is that
they often say, "We like this but we would just like some
more flexibility. If we could think of ways of matching resources
which have been made available through these different pots and
funds and initiatives and zones and so on, in a way which we think
can achieve the same outcome that the Government wants to achieve
but gives us a bit more discretion to use those resources in a
different way, we think that would be better." Is the plan
now to move to allow that greater flexibility? Can the system
accommodate it?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Mr Benn, you echo what
a lot of people have said to the people who wrote the PIU Report.
Too much inflexibility frequently leads to inadequately targeting
the money where it is most needed. One of the things the Regional
Co-ordination Unit would do is to make sure that when the policies
are crafted at Whitehall level they do have the right degree of
flexibility which in its turn means they must be properly informed
by consultation from the regions inwards before they are crafted.
You only do that if you know what people are saying on the ground
is needed in the regions or sub-regions to achieve a particular
result. So I endorse what you say and I very much hope that as
time goes on the effect of the unit and the effect of the better
communication from the Government Offices to the centre and back
will lead to the appropriate degree of flexibility in relation
to the crafting of area based initiatives.
807. One of the specific criticisms has been
that there is too much of a focus on outputs and not enough on
the general outcome at the end.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
808. If you accept that, how is that going to
be reflected in the way we do things differently in the future,
compared to how we have done them in the past?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) In a sense, Mr Benn, you
answer your own question by the question. You focus on outcomes,
you make sure your area based initiatives are done in such a way
that they will actually produce those outcomes on the ground throughout
the regions. In order to focus Government Offices better on that,
we hope we will enter into public service agreements directly
with the Government Offices where those outcomes in particular
regions are identified.
809. So if that was taken on board, the PSAs
would look different again in the future?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) There would, for example,
be a whole new series of PSAs between individual Government Offices
and the centre.
810. Just picking up the other point you made,
in order to check whether what the Government is proposing to
do is what people want on the ground, how do we make that happen
in practice given that government departments tend to want to
make announcements and then people work out afterwards whether
precisely what has been announced is going to help or not? How
do we get the Government to be able to say, "We are thinking
of doing this, tell us what you want, we can take it into account
in making a decision", rather than having the announcement
first and then trying to get it straight afterwards?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Proper consultation is
the answer. Proper links at all levels with the people who you
need to consult with before you embark on a particular policy
initiative. This is by no means remotely the whole story, regional
co-ordination, but surely it is one significant and worthwhile
element? You make sure the Government Offices, who are that part
of Central Government which is actually in the regions, are kept
in all the loops before such an announcement might be made, and
you have the Regional Co-ordination Unit to ensure the individual
departments do not make an announcement before that element of
consultation has taken place. But, as I say, it is one element.
I do not for one moment suggest it is the only one but it is a
significant and worthwhile one.
811. And yet there are a lot of pressures in
the system which encourage government departments to do the opposite.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I could not agree more
and therefore it must be all the more worthwhile to place in a
few pressures which go the opposite way.
Mrs Ellman
812. How are you going to persuade government
departments at the centre to work together to deliver regional
objectives? You keep talking all the time about Central Government
and how Central Government should listen to other people, but
suppose there are regional objectives set by the regions, how
are you going to ensure that central government departments deliver?
When we have had evidence from civil servants from various departments
on other inquiries in this Committee it has been very clear they
are looking at their individual powers in terms of departments,
their individual budgets and that they see working together and
relating to regions as a weakening of their own powers. How are
you going to tackle that?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Two things. First, you
are absolutely right to say that the nature of Government is that
it makes individual departments as time goes on look at their
departmental objectives rather than across Government objectives.
One way is you set up a structure at Central Government level
whereby the process compels the Government as a whole to look
across the piece at whether or not this meets regional objectives.
You have said in two of your questions that I refer to Central
Government, to a large measure because you want to change the
process by which Central Government addresses these issues in
order to ensure that they have a more regional focus. So part
one of my answer to your question is, by putting in existence
at Central Government level a unit which by its process compels
people to look at the regional dimension and not simply look at
their own departmental dimension. Part two is the building up
of the role of Government Offices who provide therefore a regional
voice in Central Government's considerations of policies which
might have an impact regionally or locally.
813. Have you considered, or would you consider,
assessing the effectiveness of individual partners by measuring
their contribution to joint working in regional development?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) As a general audit?
814. As an indicator of performance. That is
what they had to achieve.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) If one is trying, for
example, to target one's policies on social exclusion throughout
the country and therefore regionally and sub-regionally, one would
be able to identify across government departments—which
one does with the Social Exclusion Unit, and the Regional Co-ordination
Unit will have its part to play as well—one would be able
to see across the whole picture what each government department
was contributing to that. In terms of, could one do it for all
regional development, which is beyond things like social exclusion,
that might be quite difficult, but I will think about it. I had
not thought about it before you had raised it.
Mrs Dunwoody
815. What does Cabinet Government do if it does
not consult across the departments at a level at which decisions
can be taken which will impact on policy and which should be decided
before the public spending round is made public?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) It obviously does do that
but the nature of all Governments is that in each department each
Cabinet Minister is speaking for his department. There need to
be some parts of Government which are saying, "Let me speak
for not health, not education, not a particular other department,
but a particular goal which Government has" and focus the
process on looking at how best to achieve that particular goal.
816. But surely that is the object of Government.
That is the whole purpose of Cabinet Government—
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) It is but—
817.—that all the individual Ministers
are called together in order they may collectively reach a conclusion
which will enable them to put into operation their regional policies
out in the country. That is the basis on which United Kingdom
Government works, is it not?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I entirely agree with
that but—
818. So what is it that your Policy Unit suggests
that will be different, will have impact and which is planned
not to interfere with the running of individual departments but
to slot together their work so that the mosaic is a clear one
which people can see and understand?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) A unit like the Regional
Co-ordination Unit or the Social Exclusion Unit comes to a particular
issue without looking at it from the perspective of one department.
I fully appreciate the point you are making, of course bringing
each department together through the Cabinet system means that
people come into a room and discuss it and reach collectively
a conclusion, but it assists that process if there are units in
Government that look at the matter from a perspective different
from just one department. That must assist and facilitate.
819. But Cabinet by its very nature means individual
ministries will collectively come to a consensus position which
enables them to follow particular policies of the Government.
We do not have a series of parallel streams just going up which
disappear into the sky—or do we?—we have a structure
which brings them together within the business of government and
which leaves responsibility with individual Ministers and with
the Prime Minister.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) The experience that one
has had of government departments—and this is going back
over many, many years—is that they do operate in silos.
They operate with departmental objectives in mind, it is therefore
of assistance to break down that silo approach to have units which
cut across government departments.
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