Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1
- 19)
TUESDAY 7 MARCH 2000
MR KEITH
MILLER, MR
ALBERT AYERS
AND MR
GRAHAM DOWNIE
Chairman
1. Good morning, everyone. Can I welcome people
to the first session of the Select Committee's inquiry into travelling
fairs and make one or two points to begin with. First of all,
I would like to express the Committee's appreciation to everybody
who sent in evidence. It is now published by the Stationery Office
at a price of £10.60. You can find it on the internet at
a considerably cheaper price, whatever your phone calls cost.
So the evidence is there of all the people who got the evidence
in on time. There are one or two people who sent in late evidence,
that may appear, I am not sure, with the final version of our
report. That is the first point. The second point is I would like
to express the Committee's appreciation to everybody who helped
with the visit yesterday. We went to look at one of the sites
for winter quarters. We met some showmen and then we also had
a chance to talk to officials and councillors from Bromsgrove
Council. To those people I would like to put on record our thanks.
Also, our thanks very much to Lichfield for the arrangements for
this morning. I think everyone is aware that part of the purpose
of this Select Committee's visit was to see the small fair which
is associated with the Shrove Tuesday event. Our first set of
witnesses are from the Showmen's Guild. Would you like to introduce
yourselves, your names and positions?
(Mr Ayers) I am Albert Ayers, I am the National President
of the Showmen's Guild.
(Mr Miller) Keith Miller, General Secretary of the
Showmen's Guild.
(Mr Downie) I am Graham Downie, I am the secretary
of the Midland Section of the Showmen's Guild.
2. Now, we do give witnesses a chance to make
an opening statement if they want. Most people prefer to go straight
to questions. If you want to say anything by way of introduction,
we would be happy to hear from you.
(Mr Ayers) I am quite happy that we go straight into
questions. I do not think there is any need to say anything.
Mr Cummings
3. What evidence does the Guild have to support
the continued popularity of travelling fairs amongst the public?
(Mr Miller) I think the best way of answering that,
Mr Cummings, is to refer to rather an old document now, but nevertheless
still true in its content, and that was a report commissioned
by the Health and Safety Executive some 11 years ago. They commissioned
the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority to do a report on the
risk assessment associated with our industry. It was written by
a Dr Nigel Holloway. Part of his report determined, after thorough
examination, that over 303 million people go to travelling fun
fairs. I think that speaks volumes. Although I say this is rather
an old document, indeed almost as old as our circular, nevertheless
it is still true today that the numbers of people who go to fairs
are considerable and they continue to be so.
(Mr Ayers) I would add that the evidence that I could
give you is that I am here. I am a fifth generation showman and
I have got sons and daughters who are going to continue in this
business, in this way of life. I do consider that I am a successful
showman in the way that we operate several rides, pieces of equipment,
we are lessees that lease out fairs and run fairs and we do something
like 40 corporate events a year. I consider the fact that I am
here as a showman is proof enough.
(Mr Downie) Could I add, perhaps, Mr Cummings, that
if you had visited certain grounds during the course of the last
12 months—events such as Nottingham Goose Fair, Stratford
Mop, and, of course, more recently, the—at the moment—unique
fair that was held in the Mall to celebrate the start of the millennium
celebrations where they had over a million visitors in four days,
you would see yourselves the evident popularity of fairs.
4. Do you believe that local authorities across
the country are in tune with the public on the popularity of fairs?
(Mr Miller) We hope they are because obviously the
main landlords of the land that my members use are local authorities
so they must be in tune with what is required not only of the
industry, the showmen who put the travelling fairs on, but I hope
they take account of their council tax payers as well. Nevertheless
it is true to say, and there is evidence to show, some local authorities
just do not like fairs, the reasons you should best ask them.
It is perceived throughout the country that there are some local
authorities who do not enjoy the coming of the fairs. I am pleased
to say they are in the minority but we still have to deal with
them.
5. It would appear that you are a very generous
person because 50 per cent of the evidence submitted to the Committee
expresses severe reservations as to the perception local authorities
have of travelling fairs. Do you believe the fair brings any advantages
to the locality in which it is operating besides the enjoyment
of those who attend the fair?
(Mr Ayers) Yes. I think that the fairs, besides having
a traditional effect, do add to the community. There is a commercial
interest there that if the fair is successful then obviously the
parcel of land that the corporation is letting off, apart from
administration costs, when you consider that probably football
pitches and sports are subsidised yet the fair comes in and pays
a site rent and they will get a commercial benefit from that as
well as the community effect that we have. The families that attend
the major fair now have got to live from that area. They move
in as a family unit, they will do their shopping in the local
area. We will buy our fuel from the local area. Any maintenance
would be done on site while we are there. There are benefits and
a knock-on effect generally overall.
Chairman
6. What about town centre management? My impression,
the Select Committee did an inquiry into town centres some time
ago, was a whole lot of town centre managers were keen to get
certainly things like carousels and other bits of equipment into
old traditional towns to bring shoppers back. Do you think that
the fair can be one of those events which reminds people of their
traditional town centres rather than out of town centres?
(Mr Ayers) Yes. I have had personal experience of
that. In actual fact, I do provide rides and things in town centres
with town centre managers. It might be for special Victorian events,
it may be for the whole of the Christmas period or the winter
period. So there are benefits to bring people into the town centres
where they have had large competition from big superstores and
things like that. There are benefits to be had from that to the
town centres.
(Mr Downie) In our own area, Chairman, we have two
very good examples of where a local authority has seen the use
of a fun fair in a town centre as being a key part in a strategy
to bring people into the town centres, particularly during the
weeks running up to Christmas. One is Worcester where six years
ago they started what they call their Christmas Fayre, which has
been a tremendous success, so much so that they have had to extend
the number of days that it operates in order to try and spread
the load, as it were, because they are attracting so many people
into the town centre. The other example is one where as a section
we have played an important role, at the town of Hinckley in Leicestershire.
The local authority together with the Chamber of Commerce, and
I think that is very significant, banded together with the Showmen's
Guild to put on an event a month before Christmas, again to promote
town centre shopping. That event is now five years old. It is
now a very established event and one that is extremely well supported
and one which addresses to a large extent the problems that they
saw in terms of reviving the town centre. They are so enthusiastic
about it. One has to say that perhaps they are the exception to
the rule. At a meeting last week with the local authority and
members of the Chamber of Commerce the local authority said "We
must expand this fair, we must give you more ground to put your
amusements on". They were very positive.
Mr Cummings
7. This leads on to the next question because
we have received some very moving evidence from members of the
Guild, one of them referring to Bradford Metropolitan Council,
which the lady claims "... has lost us forever our spring
and autumn circuit of fairs...". There is a reference made
to Norwich & Eastern Counties Section of the Showmen's Guild
who indicate that "Many councils in the country are no longer
run by people who value the traditions of ..." local fairs
and so it goes on. Can you be, perhaps, a little more specific
in relation to the problems which show people experience in continuing
to hold fairs on local authority land?
(Mr Ayers) It does seem that in one way what we are
going to say now is contradicting what we have said previously.
It does seem that some established sites, traditional sites, seem
to come under threat from local authorities and other organisations
where a showman has been going for many years, he has kept his
traditional fair going, the Norwich Christmas Fair, I know in
Bradford I think it is a Mrs Wright of Marshall's Amusements has
experienced these problems, but for some policy changes, and sometimes
it can be political at the end of the day, they lose their sites.
That is where we have tried to come in and mediate between the
member and the local authority and even we have not been successful
in some of those areas in persuading them to reconsider.
(Mr Miller) Yes, I would agree, Mr Cummings, with
what Mr Ayers has just said. There is no doubt about it that there
has been a loss of fairs, as has been attested by Sandra Wright
in her evidence, and also in my evidence on the loss of Norwich
Fair, but it is very difficult to pin it down. As you rightly
said, we do have a good relationship in the main with local authorities
but if something happens along the line which puts their back
up, for whatever reason, we find it difficult to continue sometimes
a historic fair which has been going on for many, many years just
because of this one glitch that has occurred and cannot be corrected.
Chairman
8. When you refer to historic fairs, is that
charter fairs?
(Mr Miller) Yes. Norwich is a good example because
that has been going on for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
of years. All of a sudden there is this problem which has manifested
itself and with the best will in the world all the approaches
to Norwich City Council have borne no fruit at all. They just
do not seem interested in their history.
Mr Cummings
9. Was there prior consultation before they
acted?
(Mr Miller) The section had meetings with them but
local authorities in the main, and I am sure this is something
we will come on to in planning matters, do not tend to go through
a consultative process with the very people who put the fairs
on, the Showmen's Guild of Great Britain. This is to be regretted.
(Mr Ayers) There have been cases where we have held
referenda and polls and the public, the ratepayers, have come
out in support of the showmen. North Allerton, Tayne Fair, where
there was a threat to take the fair out of the street and move
in to a position which would not be viable, a position where we
felt the fair would completely die, the public came out on our
side and said no. That only highlights that some of these decisions
are made by officers, perhaps, without thinking of the livelihood
and the effect that the fair has on the local community, that
they need it there.
10. You are anticipating my next question which
is why do you believe alternative sites offered by local authorities
are often not very suitable?
(Mr Ayers) This is similar to the high street store,
there must be better positions than others. Obviously with a traditional
street fair, you are part of the town, you are part of the community.
It is where the people have come to see the fair in its actual
creation. Some of the town centres were planned on that basis
where there were big squares and wide streets. To start moving
the traditional fairs out of where they are viable and to think
they are going to be the same success in a field on the outskirts
of town just does not happen.
Chairman
11. A lot of those squares and wide streets
have been taken over by car parking.
(Mr Ayers) Some have, some have made provision for
the fair to still continue. Some have had street furniture put
in and, although the fair continues, some of their members have
had to lose part of their equipment. It is essential that the
fair is kept in a viable position. At the end of the day we are
businessmen and if we are taken out of the main position which
we feel is viable—and we class ourselves as professional
people, we know well if Oxford's St Giles' Fair was taken out
of the street and put some way out in a field off the M42, we
know that would not survive any more than two to three years—it
will go completely.
(Mr Miller) With great respect to the point just made,
if the local authority took the trouble to consult with the profession
this problem could be averted.
Mr Cummings
12. Would the Guild wish to see a form of procedure
relating to appeals against adverse decisions by local authorities
relating to fairs and fairgrounds?
(Mr Miller) Yes, we would. Why should we be different
from any other corporate body or, indeed, the judiciary of this
country? If you are not happy with a sentence passed on you by
the High Court or a court of law you can go to the Court of Appeal.
You can in planning, in planning matters you can go to appeal
and have that reheard.
Chairman
13. I thought you had gone to judicial review?
Was it Bolton who wanted to move the fair from the traditional
site and you went to the courts and won, so surely you have an
appeals procedure?
(Mr Miller) We have, but why should we go to the expense
and effort, Chairman, although the effort is important, the expense
as well, but why should we have to go to a judicial process to
get an appeal when the actual people who move us or refuse us
ground that we have had for many, many years, why should there
not be like an ombudsman within the local authority, an appeal
within that system constituted by lay people who really look at
the whole scenario and determine "Well, no, I think the local
authority acted very unfairly here"? We do not like to drag
our business through the courts if we can possibly avoid it. If
there was a more immediate and simpler way of taking our problems
to an arbitrary body or appeal, something like ACAS, something
like that in industrial terms, I think it would solve a lot of
problems that are occurring.
(Mr Ayers) Just to elaborate on that, it would be
beneficial also to the ratepayers because at the end of the day
we are coming to the local town/city to give entertainment and
it is the majority of the local ratepayers who would be attending
that fair. To impose the expense of going through the courts when
at the end of the day if the local authority lose it is the ratepayers'
money that they are using and they are our customers, I think
there would be benefits from an appeal system built in when we
have problems with fairs.
Mr Cummings
14. It has been put to the Committee that local
authorities are not really receptive to proposals for new fairs,
would you agree with that suggestion?
(Mr Miller) It is a bit of a curate's eggs this, some
local authorities will grab an opportunity to promote their town
or their city. I can give you an example: Cardiff Big Weekend
takes place every year and has for the last four or five years.
It is a marvellous fair and it was put in place by an approach
from Cardiff City Council. They gave the Showmen's Guild or travellers
the land around the court area in Cardiff, I do not know if you
know Cardiff but it is a very nice area. They made a video of
what goes on in Cardiff and the Big Weekend Fair was one of the
main parts of that video to promote Cardiff to the country at
large. I would say there is, when the opportunity arises, a very
good response from local authorities and the Guild when new fairs
are proffered because we need new fairs. I am sorry to return
to Mrs Wright's evidence but you saw what went on in Bradford,
I am sure you have seen the Western Section of evidence about
the fairs that are lost there. New fairs are our life blood but
I am afraid some local authorities will not let us continue with
the old ones.
15. What do you believe could be done to improve
local authorities' perceptions of travelling fairs and people?
(Mr Miller) That is a very good question. We have
considered for some years now, in fact I have been with the Guild
for 14 years and we would like to promote the Guild better but
it costs money. Promotion, PR, costs an awful lot of money. It
is a nettle that we will have to grasp. It is amazing how many
people do not know the Showmen's Guild exists, they think that
a fair turns up on a Friday, builds up, operates and then disappears
and is never seen again. There is a corporate body behind the
organisation and the running of this industry but local authorities,
the public, I am sad to say, are not as much aware of it as they
should be, but in the future we will take steps to address that.
(Mr Ayers) It does not just happen regarding the Showmen's
Guild, showmen are showmen whether they are members of the Guild
or not. It happens to showmen who are not members of the Guild.
Until the local authority or the local community has experienced
the genuine showmen and how they operate and what they can give
they do not realise the benefits that are there. It is a hard
question, what can we do as showmen? There are many showmen that
have become councillors in this way to try and create a better
image. There are many showmen that run charity events, the Lion's
clubs and Rotary clubs, and they have been involved through those
avenues. Basically it is down to the showmen to make a better
effort and I mean this in the context not just of the Showmen's
Guild but showmen in general.
Mr Donohoe
16. I have been at fairs and I have never once
seen anyone hand out any material or involve themselves in any
discussion about anything to do with the fair other than the fact
that the public are there for you to make money from. Now that
is a fundamental mistake, is it not?
(Mr Ayers) Yes, we do do a brochure.
17. I have never seen it.
(Mr Ayers) It is called Come to the Fair.
(Mr Miller) Yes.
(Mr Ayers) It is a good brochure and we have given
no end of those out. The showman has not done the process that
you are talking about as an individual showman on his site.
18. Surely the Guild should be promoting that
and having your members actively promote it?
(Mr Ayers) The Guild and the showmen should do it
jointly.
19. What specific proposals have you got to
change that situation?
(Mr Ayers) To be quite honest none that I know of.
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