Examination of Witnesses (Questions 55
- 79)
TUESDAY 7 MARCH 2000
COUNCILLOR STEWART
STACEY, MR
JAMES RUSSELL,
MS JEANNETTE
WILLIAMS AND
MS DELIS
ASTON
Chairman
55. Can I welcome you to the second session
this morning. Can I ask you to identify yourselves for the record.
(Councillor Stacey) Thank you. I am Councillor Stewart
Stacey, I am a member of the Local Government Association's Planning
Executive. I also happen to be this year the Chair of the Regional
Planning Body for the West Midlands. In that hat can I welcome
you to the West Midlands.
56. Thank you. And your colleagues.
(Mr Russell) I am James Russell. I am the Assistant
Director of Strategy and Planning in Coventry which in layman's
terms means I head up local planning and transportation. I am
also an adviser to the Local Government Association on various
planning matters and, again, regionally I currently Chair the
Regional Planning Officers' Group covering the West Midlands economic
region.
(Ms Williams) I am Jeannette Williams. I am Head of
Facilities for Norwich City Council. My remit is the travelling
fairs and their siting, rents and most of the operational management
as far as the local authority is concerned.
57. Thank you very much. Do you want to make
an opening statement or are you happy for us to go straight into
questions?
(Councillor Stacey) Could I just say a couple of things,
please?
58. Yes.
(Councillor Stacey) I think you are already aware
that there are a number of different issues in which local authorities
are involved, sites for fairs, winter quarters, etc., and that
local authorities are involved in different ways, whether as planning
authorities, environmental health authorities, landowners, economic
development and so on. Councils do have duties and interests way
beyond the maintenance of fairs that they have to take into account.
I think one of the issues is the competing claims for sites, sites
that show people see as attractive for fairs could also therefore
be very attractive for other regeneration initiatives. We are
encouraged by Lord Rodgers' Report for regeneration centres. I
suspect that later on today in the revised PPG3 we are going to
be encouraged to provide more housing on previously developed
land and so on. On the issue of sites for winter quarters, circular
22/91 identifies these as in effect mixed use sites which do not
essentially fit easily into existing land use categories. Since
then there has been a change in the planning world and, indeed,
the Government are now promoting mixed use sites. I think that
as we all come to grapple with the dealing now with mixed use
sites rather than a very sort of zone based planning system, that
show people will actually benefit from that as the skills of the
planning officers and committees in dealing with mixed use is
increased. Two other points. We do believe that those decisions
are best made locally by the representatives of local people,
the decision on the use of local sites, by the representatives
of local people, that is the local authority. The other point
I want to make, and I have just heard it said by the Showmen's
Guild, is that circular 22/91 seems to be languishing at the bottom
of people's drawers. We are concerned that that, indeed, may be
shown to be the position in some cases and we are quite prepared
to contact our member authorities to give prominence to 22/91
and actually remind them of it and the fact that they should be
using it. We are quite happy to come here and say we will give
it a push as well.
Mr Cummings
59. Perhaps we can relay something we heard
yesterday whereby local members rarely have a say as to whether
an application is given the go ahead in a certain location. One
of the questions posed was do you really believe that members
of the family will become members of the Mother's Union and will
they attend the local parish church as a condition of giving support
to an application for winter living quarters? What would be your
answer to that?
(Councillor Stacey) The issues of materiality to planning
decisions are quite clearly laid down in statute and history and
so on. If issues that are not material are taken into account
then I am sure that it is questionable.
60. Do you believe that there is still a place
for the entertainment provided by travelling fairs?
(Councillor Stacey) I think very much so and, indeed,
as again you have heard this morning, local authorities are often
keen to encourage it for the benefits that it can bring to uplifting
an area, bringing interest into what might be a dying centre or
something like that. There is certainly very much a place for
them and, of course, they are one entertainment business competing
with other entertainment businesses in a rapidly changing world.
61. Do you believe that local authorities in
general are in tune with the public in relation to the popularity
of travelling fairs? The evidence we have in front of us here
really is apart that from being very moving, there is also an
indictment upon various attitudes from many local authorities
up and down the country.
(Councillor Stacey) If local authorities are out of
tune I would have thought they would have found out through the
political processes. If we believe in the political process, if
some authority is going against the grain of public opinion the
public will certainly let them know both before and at the ballot
box.
Chairman
62. A lot of the people who go to fairs are
under 18 and do not have a vote and the showmen themselves often
are not registered in a particular area to vote, so the ballot
box is perhaps not the best way of judging the popularity of fairs.
(Councillor Stacey) The younger people under 18 are
members of families. You are absolutely right, they do not have
the vote themselves. I think local authorities do do surveys of
opinion also. I think, Jeannette, you have got one that you did
in your own authority?
(Ms Williams) Yes, if I may. As part of our consultation
to try to find a permanent site for the fair in Norwich, the travelling
fairs under the old historic charter, we conducted a wide ranging
survey of everyone. We used a number of means. We actually collected
the data through the streets, we used a local newspaper and we
did a poll of selective households, a random selection there.
It was interesting because of the age of our survey respondents,
the great majority of them were between 40 and 59 years of age,
then closely followed by the 60s and overs, then the 25 to 39
year olds and the 16 to 24 year olds were actually the smallest
age group. In fact people still wanted fairs, that was certainly
what came out from our survey. Our problem in Norwich was the
conflicting use of where these historic fairs of Christmas and
Easter were actually situated, they were in shopping streets and
we were just getting a conflict of interest from all the parties
within the streets. Our survey showed that the general public,
local businesses and virtually everyone we surveyed came down
to saying that those streets were not the sites for fairs in Norwich
on those two occasions.
63. The survey said they wanted fairs but they
wanted them somewhere else?
(Ms Williams) They said they wanted fairs, they liked
fairs, they thought they provided good entertainment, they thought
the shows and rides offered good value for money, they thought
there was a nice range but what they did not want was them in
those local streets in Norwich.
64. Is that a report that was prepared for the
council?
(Ms Williams) It was a report which was prepared for
the council. It was sent to the Showmen's Guild as part of the
consultation exercise. They have had the results of that. It was
in public.
65. Could we have a copy of it please?
(Ms Williams) You can indeed.
Chairman: Thank you very much.
Mr Cummings
66. Do local authorities consult sufficiently
with showmen or with the Guild when considering town centre redevelopment?
(Councillor Stacey) I think we really do not have
sufficient evidence on that to say one way or the other. I think
there are examples of good practice and I am quite prepared to
believe that there are examples of bad practice. We would want
to encourage the good practice. As I say, even where there is
consultation, of course, it does not mean that the end result
is going to be necessarily the way the Showmen's Guild would want
it. Of course, other consultation might point in the opposite
direction. Being consulted does not mean you get the result you
want.
67. For instance, the Local Government Association
must consult with many bodies during the course of the year. Have
you met with the Showmen's Guild?
(Councillor Stacey) I am not aware that we have.
(Ms Aston) No.
68. Will you be taking that on board in the
future now that these planning guidance notes are going to be
given some prominence?
(Councillor Stacey) Yes, I think, as I say, if we
are going to circulate our members with it, it would be good practice
for us to consult with the Showmen's Guild before doing that to
see if, with a circular letter with it, there are any particular
issues we want to highlight.
69. What problems do local authorities have
in allowing fairs to take place on local authority land? For example,
do they result in large numbers of complaints from local residents,
from traders and from the police?
(Councillor Stacey) I think that there are various
problems that can occur; the problems that you get with any gathering
of people. There are problems, also, of the effect on the land,
if they are parks, the churning and so on of land and therefore
it is a sterilisation for a period. If you allow them on land
that is normally a car park you have the problem of then where
do the cars go, especially if it is attracting even more people
in so there are issues like that. Local authorities do get complaints
from the operation of some fairs on the effects on local residents,
as I say, more or less in line, I think, with any large gathering
of people who are acquiring things that they might discard and
making noise and having fun.
70. Would it be true to say that you do not
have the evidence filed in the Local Government Association offices?
(Councillor Stacey) I think that is fair. There may
be specific cases.
(Ms Williams) Again, if I may, I think most of the
complaints we have had from the public are about litter, the increased
litter. We do extra litter picks.
71. No, what I am suggesting is there has not
been any formal investigation or inquiry or assessment made by
the Local Government Association?
(Councillor Stacey) Not for the Association as far
as I am aware.
72. In terms of travelling fairs in general?
(Councillor Stacey) No.
73. In relation to winter quarters, in relation
to sites for travelling fairs?
(Councillor Stacey) No.
74. What would be your reaction to proposals
for a formal appeals procedure against adverse local authority
decisions relating to fairs and fairgrounds?
(Councillor Stacey) Certainly if it is a planning
decision there is already an appeals procedure. If it is a decision
into the use of council land then I think it is difficult to understand
in a way how it would be different from the council saying "Well,
we are going to change the use of this row of shops to housing"
or something like that and thereby displacing commercial people
from there. I think if you start putting in an appeals system
above the whole of local government decisions you are negating
the role of local government.
Chairman
75. Is there not something different about charter
fairs because in a sense a town or city got its charter on the
basis of providing charter fairs and, therefore, if you are trying
to do away with a charter fair is that not slightly different
and ought it not to be more like a compulsory purchase order where
there is an appeals mechanism?
(Councillor Stacey) I think the historical situation
that led to those has changed somewhat. As I said earlier, fairs
are one of a number of leisure industries and there are new leisure
industries coming in, seeking space that may even have higher
throughput, higher turnover and higher economic benefits. I think
the historic issue of the charter fair is one where again that
will be a matter for public opinion, the consultation process
and even the political process as to the outcome. We have seen
a number of structural changes in industry over the past 10 or
20 years where, shall we say, villages that grew up because of
their historic mining connections for example no longer are there
for that reason.
76. The charter is slightly different because
the charter is there, is it not, as a legal document and, therefore,
if you want to put it aside surely there should be some form of
appeal?
(Councillor Stacey) I am not sure. I think I would
have to take advice on the legal standing of the charter actually
in local government.
(Mr Russell) Could I perhaps chip in, Chairman? I
think the issue of appeals is quite an important one. The Showmen's
Guild already have said that they find going to judicial review
unduly expensive and unduly onerous. I think it is worth remembering
that there are two other procedures which people can take in fact
when they are aggrieved by the decisions of the local authority.
One is actually to go to the ombudsman on the basis of maladministration
saying the process which the local authority has adopted—
77. The only trouble with that is that the ombudsman
can find in favour of the showmen and the local authority can
still ignore it, can it not?
(Mr Russell) That is absolutely right. That is more
an issue for a debate on the role of the ombudsman. It is worth
remembering also that all authorities are required to have a monitoring
officer whose responsibility is to ensure, as I understand it,
that the local authorities do not divert from the path of good
and right and legal things. Certainly if in fact the local authority
is due to make a decision which is contrary to law and the public
good, as I understand it, it is the responsibility of the designated
monitoring officer in the local authority, who is either the chief
executive or the senior legal officer, to call the council to
task and say "Hold on a minute, you ought not to be making
this decision". I would have thought one of those three routes
would have provided sufficient comfort.
Chairman: Obviously it did not in the case of
Bolton, did it, judicial review found in favour of the showmen,
so obviously that mechanism failed in the case of Bolton, but
it is very helpful to put on the record.
Mr Donohoe
78. What does your organisation do to educate
the individual councils about the Showmen's Guild and the showmen
in general?
(Councillor Stacey) I do not think we do anything
on that.
79. Why not?
(Councillor Stacey) I think there are a vast number
of issues on which we do provide education, support and guidance
to local authorities, especially at the moment in the role of
the changes taking place in local authorities. I have to say that
is taking up a large amount of our time. When issues arise either
upwards from our members, issues on which they want guidance and
so on, or where it is perceived nationally, as I say, there is
a failing, then we will do that. I have to say that these procedures
have brought this issue to our attention. We have not had a mass
cry from our members saying "We have got a problem with providing
sites for travelling showmen" and I am not aware that the
travelling showmen have approached us either.
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