Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
TUESDAY 7 MARCH 2000
COUNCILLOR STEWART
STACEY, MR
JAMES RUSSELL,
MS JEANNETTE
WILLIAMS AND
MS DELIS
ASTON
80. In the last year, for instance, how many
actual hits—or whatever it is that would best describe that
in the modern way—how many occasions have you had representations
made to you as an organisation about a subject which had something
to do with showmen?
(Ms Aston) Two cases. I have been working for the
Local Government Association for the last four and a half months.
I can only comment on the facts and the issues brought to my attention
during that time. As far as I am aware travelling fairs in terms
of the sites for fairs and issues of winter quarters have not
been significant issues that I have been made aware of as a policy
officer in the planning section. I have mentioned two cases and
they have not been specifically on travelling sites, it has been
travellers in general, covering unauthorised campovers.
81. Okay. How receptive would the local authorities
be to proposals for new fairs, for instance? We heard a lot earlier
about new fairs which have been highly successful, what marketing,
if anything, as an Association are you giving to the whole concept
of improving tourism in some of our areas that have perhaps been
lacking in terms of direction? Has there been any work done in
the Association in that connection and in particular about showmen?
(Councillor Stacey) I am not aware of that.
82. Why not?
(Councillor Stacey) That would be dealt with by our
Executive. Is it the Leisure, Culture and Tourism Executive?
(Ms Aston) Yes.
(Councillor Stacey) It would be dealt with by them.
Now as you have heard already various authorities are keen to
have fairs. What I can do is find out what, if anything, has been
done through the Leisure Executive and let you have that.
83. Okay. When was the last time that a circular
was issued to your members, specifically in connection with show
people?
(Councillor Stacey) I am not aware of the answer to
that.
(Ms Aston) Perhaps I can help with that. We have not
issued a circular on it as far as I am aware during the time that
I have worked for the LGA, nor in the short time prior because
it has not been an issue that is of concern to the LGA. Obviously
if we have a small number of comments or issues raised to us through
comments from local authorities we would deal with them through
the appropriate channels but normally the issue of circulars to
all 500 local authorities if it is an issue we believe we need
to receive information on we would receive written evidence.
84. Is there anything in place though? I have
heard over the last four months, and presumably over the last
year, but over the last 15 years has there been any circular issued
by the Association particularly and specifically about showmen?
(Councillor Stacey) I am not aware of one. The Association
has actually only been in existence for the last three years,
before that it was the separate associations. I am not aware of
one, no.
85. If you are not going to do that, do you
think that national Government should do that?
(Councillor Stacey) I think that the national Government
circular 22/91 on planning issues is there, it is on the table,
we have heard it is in the bottom of the drawer. As I have said
we are quite prepared to exhume that.
86. What would you do as an organisation? Would
you be in favour or opposed to the idea that the national Government
would issue new regulation supplementary to the existing regulations?
(Councillor Stacey) We think that the existing planning
guidance is quite sufficient if it is properly applied, yes.
(Mr Russell) I think it is fair, Chairman, Mr Donohoe,
to point out the fact that since circular 22/91 came out, an awful
lot of PPGs which are the general policy advice on planning matters
have been revised and updated. Whilst none of those specifically
refer, as far as I am aware, to the issues to do with fairs and
Showmen's Guild, a number of them have policies which are relevant.
There is obviously the one about the green belt, there is the
one about helping small businesses and enterprises, as Councillor
Stacey said, there is the one on housing which we believe will
be reissued this afternoon by John Prescott, there are ones on
open space, there are ones on countryside, there are ones on enforcement,
there are a whole range of them which have policies which may
not specifically say "this applies to the Showmen's Guild"
but apply to them just as they apply to any other small business
or mixed use. If I suggest what actually might be more appropriate
is if circular 22/91 is upgraded and updated to make reference
to the fact that in the last nine years an awful lot of new planning
advice has flown under the bridge since then—
87. Thank you, Mr Russell, that is exactly what
I want to hear. Can I ask, as an Association do you perceive a
lack of understanding about the whole question of the role of
the Showmen's Guild amongst your members and amongst the general
public?
(Mr Russell) I do not think we do. I think individual
authorities understand what the circular says, I think it understands
about consultation.
88. That is the circular. In a broader sense,
we hear of some of the problems, particularly in the north of
England, some parts of Scotland, local authorities having absolutely
no knowledge at all about the role of the Showmen's Guild, is
that the case or is that not the case?
(Mr Russell) Obviously I cannot speak for all of them.
89. I see Councillor Stacey nodding his head
so I am going to ask him?
(Councillor Stacey) I can believe that is the case.
90. Therefore, why then do you not issue circulars?
If you perceive that as an Association to be the case why have
you not issued the circular to help? Why do you not have seminars
to assist?
(Councillor Stacey) As I have said, what we do, we
take action when things are brought to our attention one of two
ways, upwards when there is a problem there that is brought to
our attention by member authorities, and this one is not. You
may well say "Well they would not, would they" to misquote
someone.
91. Maybe this morning's session will have done
that for you, will it?
(Councillor Stacey) Absolutely.
92. Excellent. That is what I want to hear.
(Councillor Stacey) As I said earlier, we are quite
prepared to take action, this issue now having been raised.
93. I see the Chairman is becoming edgy because
obviously we are running over time, do you think that local people
distinguish between the showmen and the travelling people and
the others that are on the road?
(Councillor Stacey) This can only be a gut reaction
from talking to people but I think people do, I think people understand
that there is a difference between people running fairs and other
people travelling. I think it does become blurred to some extent.
I come from an authority myself where we have a very stable situation,
two long established sites for winter quarters, one of which is
also a showground, and everyone understands who the showmen are.
It is not a problem.
94. As an individual you recognise that there
is an increasing need for those types of sites?
(Councillor Stacey) I recognise that there is a need
for them.
95. Does the Association?
(Councillor Stacey) The Association recognises that
there is a need for the sites.
96. What have they done to alert their members,
the local authorities to that fact?
(Councillor Stacey) It goes back to circular 22/91
which is what in effect told us.
97. What have you done specifically as an Association
over the existence of your term to have alerted and notified and
made available to your members that is a problem and something
they should look at?
(Councillor Stacey) Nothing as far as I am aware.
(Ms Williams) No.
Chairman
98. We have your assurance that as far as circular
22/91 either you will press the Government to reissue it, updating
it, and in addition you will be pressing your members to implement
it?
(Councillor Stacey) Yes.
99. Right. Supposing we went on to regional
planning conferences, since you know a lot about that. How far
has the West Midlands Regional Planning Conference looked at the
provision of winter sites for showmen?
(Councillor Stacey) We are just at the start of our
process. Only a fortnight ago we started our process. What we
are out to consultation on now is in effect a process that last
time round we called Are we asking the right questions.
It is raising issues that we think are going to be the issues
that people are going to want to be taken into account.
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