Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200
- 219)
TUESDAY 21 MARCH 2000
MR RAY
SMITH, MR
GEORGE IRVIN,
MS SUSAN
PEAK AND
MR GEORGE
SCARROTT
Chairman
200. It is ten o'clock, I think we should make
a start, and this is the second session of the Committee's Inquiry
into Travelling Fairs. Can I welcome the witnesses to the Committee,
and ask you to identify yourselves, for the record, please?
(Mr Smith) Thank you. My name is Ray Smith and I am
an employee of Irvin Leisure Limited, and over Christmas I was
employed by Big Time Events Limited, who organised the funfair
on The Mall.
(Mr Scarrott) My name is George Scarrott, a small
showman from Wiltshire.
(Ms Peak) I am Susan Peak, travelling showman, and
I represent Planning for Showmen.
201. Thank you very much. Now I do not know
if any of you want to make a brief statement, to start with, or
are you happy for us to go into questions straightaway?
(Ms Peak) Yes; that is fine.
(Mr Smith) Questions, please.
Mr Gray
202. If I could start with sort of a general
approach to what fairs are about, and I know that we have got
different sizes of fairs represented, show people represented,
here. The first question is, are fairs still as popular with the
public as they were?
(Ms Peak) Yes.
(Mr Scarrott) I would say, yes; where we travel, people
are very pleased that we still go. I have a bunch of nice letters
here from councillors, authorities, in places we travel to with
the fair, and they have all sent me nice letters, so you can see
that they have always valued the fair and they would like it to
continue for as long as possible, they have no objection whatsoever.
I would say the value of the fair is definitely still there.
203. Do you think, over the years, the numbers
of people attending have gone down, gone up, or stayed the same?
(Ms Peak) I think they have gone up, most definitely,
yes, I think they are more popular now with young people; otherwise
we would not still be in the business that we are in.
204. If that is right, if there are more people
going to fairs, do local authorities, by and large, recognise
that, do you think that local authorities are aware of the increased
popularity of fairs?
(Mr Irvin) Not really, at all, no, I would not think
so. I think that is perhaps a lot of our problem as well, not
actually getting that over to local authorities, in some ways.
(Mr Smith) Local authorities are very negative about
funfairs, they have never actually recognised the positive impact
that a fair has in the local area; they always react, which is
understandable, to people who complain, and then they tend to
take that as the reaction of `local people don't like fairs',
whereas, in fact, it is local people who attend the fairs. Our
company operates mainly in London and the South East, and where
we have done research, particularly in terms of advertising spending,
we have found that the majority of people coming to the fair,
the vast majority, 75 per cent, come from within a mile of the
funfair site; now those are local people. And the local authorities
do not recognise the value of the fair, and that is a major problem.
205. I wonder if that is different; Mr Scarrott,
you were saying that, by and large, your local authorities are
in favour?
(Mr Scarrott) They are, you see, because, although
we travel, because we travel to small market towns and villages,
Mr Irvin and his friend are probably a different case altogether
from how we go on, we find it very easy-going, very pleasant.
And we do not get thousands of people, we get hundreds, and the
local authorities are always very good, except for places where
they have lost control of the ground and they cannot help us at
all, but, otherwise, for us, in a small way, it is okay.
206. Mr Smith, why is that, is it because the
South East is that much more built up, and therefore fewer sites,
and therefore local authorities have other priorities than perhaps
they have in the West Country, which has more space, and why do
you think there would be that distinction between the two?
(Mr Smith) I think it is because, in London, in particular,
the local authority parks are heavily surrounded by houses, so,
therefore, the site of the funfair is, by definition, close to
residents; and what tends to happen is that one or two residents
will always complain, and therefore the local authority can react
to that. They tend to put the fairs out each year to tender, which
is not a positive approach, because that does not allow you to
build up a good local relationship. Where you have a good local
relationship, where you get to meet local people, where they get
to know you, then you find that one night if the noise is too
loud from the music they will ring you up, or they will come over,
and you will turn it down, that is the way that noise is controlled.
People face practical problems when a funfair comes into a park
in their area, and they can be solved, but there are some people
who, out of principle, do not want anything in a park, even though
that fair has been in that park for 60 or 70 years, and they have
only been in the area for a shorter period. But, London local
authorities, and outside London, it is different, there is no
question about that.
207. Are there positive ways in which you can
overcome that kind of problem, in actually getting out to local
people and persuading them of the value of the fair, do any of
you take part in that kind of thing?
(Mr Irvin) We do, really. We have set up local forums,
with local people, we have liaison with local councils, and so
on, and the best way forward with that is, where we have been
lucky enough to be the same operator going back each year, we
pick up those relationships with the councils and we have set
positive things in progress, and that has worked. Where it becomes
a problem is where some local authorities have put events out
to tender, which we can understand the reason for, different operators
each year, different practices each year; it sounds very good,
for two or three years, and then there are no fairs left afterwards.
You would not put your local cafes out for tender each year, in
the parks, and different things, the boating, and the rest of
the things.
208. The net upshot of all of this is, more
people are interested in and like going to fairs, but local authorities,
by and large, less one side; does that mean a net reduction in
the days available or in the sites available?
(Mr Irvin) There is a net reduction in orders. We
have got two problems. Some local authorities are just looking,
I suppose, at the revenue on that, and they think, "Oh, great,
we've got a site here that would take a fair," and then they
overkill it, they allow five fairs there a year. The net result
of that is, the revenue goes down, the popularity of it goes down,
and everything, and we have ended up with nothing at all then.
The positive approach is where local authorities have a venue
there, which is going to take one or two fairs a year, perhaps
a circus and something else, a carnival, or something, a spread
of events; the money is still coming in, it has been positive,
the people can see it has not been overdone, the revenue usually
coming from the fair is equal, probably, to what would have come
in for four or five fairs, and it is a much better approach that
has gone forward there. You said earlier on, are fairs more popular;
you have only got to look at the investment we have actually made
in our business, really, the equipment, over the years, and so
on, especially in the last five or six years; that investment
would not be going in unless it were popular.
Mrs Dunwoody
209. So what are we talking about, what would
be the average span, there will be a difference between you and
Mr Scarrott, obviously?
(Mr Irvin) It is different areas.
210. Approximately, what would be the price
of a lot of these rides?
(Mr Irvin) A ride now could be a quarter of a million
pounds, a new ride, and it would come into a more built-up area,
like we use, and it would actually go down to the next tier, smaller
fairs, perhaps, in the country, as Mr Scarrott said, with slightly
older rides, and actually it would go down, it would find its
way down.
211. I know we are going for averages, but,
in the London areas, how many rides, what kind of investment would
you have on a site?
(Mr Irvin) Really you could not say that, because
the sites vary in size.
212. Yes, but you said, specifically, which
was interesting, that you can, in effect, overuse a site, because
you get too many fairs, and presumably people say, "No, we
did that, we spent so many pounds last week, we're not doing that
again." So there must be some correlation in your mind, you
must have a kind of graph that says, "We can afford to do
this circuit so many times in a year, and so many sites."
All I am trying to get at is, what would be the kind of average
investment, and if there is any kind of indication of the difference
between the smaller fair and yours?
(Mr Irvin) You cannot say that really, what is the
average investment, because, the thing is, we are a company who
set up to provide fairs, we do not actually invest in the majority
of the rides, we actually set up fairs, we set them up with a
nucleus of—
213. Physically, you mean?
(Mr Irvin) Yes; with a certain number of showmen that
attend.
214. So they are not yours, you are leasing
them?
(Mr Smith) Yes.
(Mr Irvin) In a way, yes. We actually lease bringing
in the showmen, actually making up the size of the fair, so what
we want at the events—
215. So your investment is in the ride, but
you are actually leasing them to the showmen?
(Mr Irvin) No, I think you misunderstand me, it is
the other way round. We actually provide major events, we will
actually stage a major event, we will invest in advertising, and
different things, then we offer the pitches to various other showmen
to attend that event and build up the size of the event we want.
And it is a lot more controlled in that way, you can do a lot
more to it, you can actually build up the event in its size, and
it goes smaller, it is even done in a smaller way. The investment
is made by showmen all over the country, whether they are large,
small, or whatever; but the investments are getting more and more
and more. And, the thing is, the business is becoming harder and
harder for a lot of showmen, regardless of their size; recognition
is not there, even in the form of a business, really. We come
into a number of other things, when it comes into VAT, different
other things, that we might talk about later.
Mr Gray
216. One last go, from my point of view, if
I may, in that case. The number of sites available, not so much
the fixed sites that we have been talking about; Mr Scarrott,
for example, has there been a net reduction in the number of sites
available to a travelling fair?
(Mr Scarrott) Yes, we have lost 20 per cent of our
sites with a fair, in the last 12, 15 years, through development.
217. Does that mean the length of the season
is that much shorter, that you do?
(Mr Scarrott) Yes, we go to some places twice now
where we used to go only once, and stay two weeks where we used
to stay one; we have lost a good 20 per cent of our sites. But,
more concerning, are we going to lose what we have got left, that
is what I am mainly concerned about.
218. But that is local authorities deciding
no longer to have a fair in their particular town?
(Mr Scarrott) No, they are not deciding they do not
want the fair, they are just using the land for other purposes
and not leaving any space at all. I go into council offices, and
they say, "Hello, Mr Scarrott, are you bringing the fair
back?" and I say, "Yes," and I say "Where
do you want it?" and they say, "Well, we haven't got
anywhere now, if you can find a field we would be only too pleased
to see you." But if you are lucky enough to find somewhere
in the country it is too far away for people to walk to, or the
children to go to, and it becomes not half so good, so you are
on a downer from then on. When you lose an old-established site
for the fair, a feast, or traditional fair, like Bonfire Night,
really, it is that old and traditional, and when you lose that
site, if you are lucky enough to find another one, it is never
so good; so from then on you are on a downward trend.
219. One mile is about right, the distance people
will travel to go to the fair, is that about right; if it is outside
the town they simply will not come?
(Mr Scarrott) They do not come half as much as they
did when it was in the central position, or if it is raining they
do not come, because they get soaking wet through. In this day
and age, with problems with people as they are, they are not going
to let their children walk away in the dark, go home in the dark;
so it turns gradually from a very good venue to somewhere where
you get just a few, rather than what you should get.
(Mr Irvin) In London, dare we say, there are now almost
50 per cent fewer sites that are still available, especially in
East London, places like that. For instance, Tower Hamlets had
12 sites at one time, we are actually down to two fairs, at the
moment, which are still doubtful this year, with the redevelopment
of Mile End Park, and various other things. We might provide in
a season, say, 300 to 400 ride positions for various showmen to
attend, now mostly we get twice as many people applying for those
positions, so it means there are a lot more showmen out there
looking for sites than are available, we know that by the amount
of showmen we are actually turning away from sites where we cannot
accommodate them. We have really got an acute loss of sites in
London, especially in the East of London, here.
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