Examination of Witnesses (Questions 265
- 279)
TUESDAY 21 MARCH 2000
MR IAN
BASELEY, MS
JANET MONTGOMERY
AND MR
DAVID LOVEDAY
Chairman
265. Can I welcome you to the second session
this morning on Travelling Fairs. Can I ask you to identify yourselves,
for the record, please?
(Mr Loveday) I am David Loveday. I am a planning consultant.
(Mr Baseley) I am Ian Baseley. I am a planning consultant,
and I have represented travelling showpeople for the last 14 years,
and also assisted in the drafting of Circular 22/91.
Mrs Dunwoody
266. It is your fault, dare I say?
(Mr Baseley) Precisely.
(Ms Montgomery) My name is Janet Montgomery. I am
a planning consultant and surveyor. I have been acting for travelling
showpeople, as well as other clients, for the last ten years,
and assisted the Showmen's Guild in the preparation of their Model
Standard Package, which deals with planning issues.
Chairman
267. Thank you very much. Do any of you want
to make any introductory remarks, or are you happy to go straight
to questions?
(Ms Montgomery) Straight to questions.
Chairman: Thank you.
Mr Donohoe
268. What representations, if any, have you
made to Government about the loss of travelling sites in the centre
of towns?
(Ms Montgomery) This is fairground sites, you are
concerned with?
269. Yes?
(Ms Montgomery) I have made some representations on
behalf of the Guild, last year, to the Development Control Policy
Division, highlighting some of the problems that I had been alerted
to by the Showmen's Guild, of loss of fairground sites and the
problems that they were having in retaining those. Some months
later I did get a response from the DETR, really giving me the
opinion that they did not feel that it would be appropriate to
have any detailed guidance through any Planning Policy Guidance
Notes; or, indeed, I suggested perhaps a direction, not dissimilar
to the `loss of playing-fields' direction that came out last year,
that may afford some protection to the fairground sites within
town centres. So the response I received was that they did not
feel that it was significant enough to warrant any special mention
within any Planning Policy Guidance Notes, or, indeed, an individual
direction.
270. Have you any evidence that there has been
a shrinkage in that respect, as far as fairgrounds in centres
of towns are concerned?
(Ms Montgomery) The evidence really is through the
showmen themselves, that have been passed on to myself, and the
evidence that we have heard through this.
271. But you are not aware, as a consultant,
are you, that there has been any audit done, that this is a particular
problem, in order that it can be quantified, that it is not just
anecdotal, that it is actual fact that there has been this reduction,
and it is down to the fact that they are losing these sites because
of contraction?
(Ms Montgomery) The evidence that I have got is, again,
through the showmen, but it would appear that it is through the
pedestrianisation in town centre enhancement schemes; that then
puts the fairground site itself and the prominence of that in
the planning system at a very low priority, as to what is worth
retaining and what is not worth retaining. And that is the impression
that I have got, through that.
272. So what would you say, what would be your
recommendation?
(Ms Montgomery) I would like to see some cross-referencing
within some of the Planning Policy Guidance Notes. For example,
on the PPG6, which deals with town centres, the importance that
fairgrounds have to the vitality and viability of town centres,
for example, but there was just a reference to fairgrounds; so
I think the local authorities would pay more attention to the
priority that it should give to fairgrounds within the planning
system and within the redevelopment schemes that might come forward,
whether it is local authority driven, or private development driven.
I have also suggested the possibility of cross-referencing in
Planning Policy Guidance Note 17, which is sport and recreation,
whereby there are some fairs that take place on recreation grounds,
and, therefore, if there are any developments that might affect
recreation grounds, they should consider whether or not a fairground
actually exists there as well.
273. I think you have also made mention of PPG21?
(Ms Montgomery) Twenty-one is another one which is
to do with tourism, and some fairs do provide a very good tourist
attraction, they are promoted by local authorities, and I think
a reference within PPG21 could well give local authorities, again,
the indication.
274. When you are making representations, do
you mention these aspects, do you indicate the actual strengths
of the argument, in terms of tourism, in particular; is that part
of what you would do?
(Ms Montgomery) Yes, I would like to promote that,
and, as I said, the representations that I have made have just
been a letter highlighting these three, I did highlight these
three.
Mr Donohoe: Where would you see this as being
an important element; it would not be necessarily in the rural
areas, you could attract tourists, could you not, into the more
urban areas, and probably have done, as far as fairs are concerned?
Would you, or any of your colleagues, make that part of the representations
that you make, in terms of trying to open the doors, as far as
this contraction that is perceived as taking place is concerned;
is it something that you have actively encouraged as being part
of the representations that you make on behalf of the showmen
themselves? You all look blank.
Chairman
275. Give us one example of where you would
say a fair has a significant impact on tourism?
(Mr Loveday) Nottingham.
Mr Donohoe
276. Why do you say Nottingham?
(Mr Loveday) Nottingham Goose Fair is not only a local
fair but it is a regional, almost national, fair; it is probably
one of the principal fairs in the country and draws not just showmen
but members of the public from all over.
277. Are you aware of any monies coming in from
the local tourist group, to assist the marketing of that particular
fair?
(Mr Loveday) I am not aware, no.
278. Do you not think that that is what should
happen?
(Mr Loveday) I think, if you are going to include
fairs in a strategy for tourism in a region, or in a urban area,
then, yes, that is very important; it has not just got to be the
local authority, it has got to be the regional and national bodies
that support tourism, and the like, which can be involved. I see
no problem with that.
Chairman
279. But there have been some problems, have
there not, with the site for the Goose Fair in Nottingham? So
is that an example of a local authority not really understanding
just how successful that event is, in tourist terms?
(Mr Baseley) I would like to say that if any local
authority ought to know what good a fair does, Nottingham ought
to know, because it has been going for many, many years and it
is a very, very important and very successful fair. The fact that
it may or may not have had problems over the last few years, I
would ask you to draw your own conclusion. The showmen themselves,
I heard from the last group, they actually want the fairs to continue,
there is a continuing need in the public's mind and a demand for
them; it is other issues that seem to impinge upon the fair, rather
than giving the fair the priority.
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