Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360
- 374)
MR NICK
RAYNSFORD, MR
JEFF JACOBS
AND MR
CHRIS SHEPLEY
TUESDAY 18 APRIL 2000
360. If all of a sudden your mail bag was to
increase enormously, you would look at this in a different light?
You would look at the problem in a different way?
(Mr Raynsford) Of course, if one gets a very large
number of representations, that is an indication that there is
public concern about a matter, but I was using this as an indication
of the fact that we do not currently have a level of concern expressed
by the outside world which would suggest that this is a serious
problem. I am sure for individuals, where their winter quarters
disappear, that is a very serious problem indeed and obviously
it is important that local authorities do respond to that and
do so in the framework set by PPG17. I would simply repeat that,
across the country as a whole, the number of cases brought to
our attention does not suggest that there is numerically a large
problem.
361. We have evidence to suggest that there
are some 139 families in the south east of England alone desperately
looking for accommodation. Would that surprise you?
(Mr Raynsford) No, it would not particularly surprise
me but of course I would put that in the context of the numbers
applying to local authorities as homeless which is very, very
much greater.
362. In the circumstances, you would not think
it useful for your department to be looking for evidence of this
shortage?
(Mr Raynsford) I think it is a matter for the local
authorities concerned, as I have already said. Because these issues
arise locally and because, by their very nature, travelling showpeople
will be moving from area to area—their winter quarters may
be in the same area but they need not necessarily be so—I
am not sure that the fact that 139 in the south of England are
encountering some difficulty in finding accommodation is an indication
of a massive problem. Certainly by contrast with the level of
demand for affordable housing in the south, it would appear to
be quite a modest problem.
363. If I can take you to the circular that
specifically deals with showpeople, circular 22/91, do you think
there is a case for strengthening that at this stage, given that
it was clear on the basis of evidence that we have received that
local authorities do not necessarily pay an awful lot of attention
to it as an issue?
(Mr Raynsford) As I have already said, there may be
a case for reminding local authorities of its existence. It is
nine years since it was last issued and a reminder might help
to concentrate attention. I am not sure that I could see where
strengthening would improve a document which does seem to admirably
set out the problem in terms of the need for provision for travelling
showpeople and the way in which local authorities can address
that in terms of their development plans, the handling of applications
and in meeting the wider needs of showpeople in their area.
364. We have identified, on the basis of some
of the evidence that we have taken, a problem in that local authorities
do not consult the Showmen's Guild. Do you not think that, to
make the situation more transparent, we should make it part of
an obligation on the part of local authorities that they must
first, before drawing up their development plans, consult with
the Showmen's Guild?
(Mr Raynsford) I think you will be aware that paragraph
16 of the circular does say, "On all matters likely to affect
travelling showpeople, including the preparation of local plans
and unitary development plans as well as development control,
local authorities are advised at an early stage to contact the
General Secretary, the Showmen's Guild ...". That is very
good advice. I am more than happy to remind local authorities
of that advice. I think it would be difficult to impose a stronger
obligation in respect of one category of people only when that
would not necessarily apply to other interested parties in other
areas of planning, because this is how the planning system operates,
through advisory documents that local authorities are encouraged
to follow. I am more than happy to draw this to their attention.
Mr Olner
365. Are you completely happy that that stuff
has been gathering dust for nine years and they have not read
it?
(Mr Raynsford) I do not know that that is the case.
They may well have read it but of course local authority staff
change and it may well be appropriate to issue a reminder. I am
more than happy to do that.
Chairman
366. You see a fair number of these development
plans. Are you aware of any of them that have actually put in
provision for showmen's winter quarters?
(Mr Raynsford) Not off the top of my head. I cannot
say.
Chairman: My impression is that none of them
does and I think it needs remedying.
Mr Brake
367. Minister, you just said that circular 22/91
admirably sets out the problem and need for provision for travelling
showpeople. Can you explain therefore, because it is going to
be very, very clear and straightforward, what constitutes the
very special circumstances referred to in this circular when an
application for a quarter in green belt land will succeed?
(Mr Raynsford) As you are aware, there is a general
presumption against development in the green belt and it is not
just a matter of travelling showpeople; it is a question that
applies to other travellers and gypsies; it is a question that
applies to other developers. Anyone seeking development in the
green belt must demonstrate exceptional circumstances to justify
overruling the normal presumption. In the case of travelling showpeople,
they are in no different a position to anyone else. We have a
very simple issue to resolve here. Do we believe in the retention
of the green belt and do we believe in policies that strongly
discourage development in the green belt? If we do, those have
to apply across the board and it would be inappropriate to allow
unlimited opportunities for development in the green belt to one
category of applicant. On the other hand, we do recognise that
there are exceptional circumstances. There are occasions where
it may be appropriate to revise the green belt boundary in exceptional
circumstances and we accept that there may be individual planning
applications that might be appropriate in the green belt for very
special reasons. It seems to me that the planning framework allows
for this while at the same time protecting the green belt, which
I believe is a concern very widely shared, not just by the government,
but I guess by this Committee and by the country at large.
368. I understand that, but I was asking you
specifically what those very special circumstances were. You just
said, "They are very special."
(Mr Raynsford) By definition, anything that is very
special cannot be categorised in general terms. It is an exceptional
circumstance and it is for the local authority in the first instance;
and the planning inspector if this comes to be considered on appeal;
and for the Secretary of State if it comes to the Secretary of
State for a decision on appeal to decide whether those special
circumstances apply.
369. Can you think of any specific instances
where you have granted permission because very special circumstances
applied?
(Mr Raynsford) I have, in the case of travellers and
gypsies, done so. I have not to my knowledge in the case of travelling
showpeople because I have not to my knowledge had an application
involving travelling showpeople seeking development in the green
belt.
370. Not seeking development, but for showpeople's
quarters in green belt land. That is what I am talking about.
(Mr Raynsford) I do not recall having an application
involving travelling showpeople seeking planning permission for
winter quarters in the green belt. I do recall planning applications
from travellers and gypsies seeking such developments and I recall,
in some cases, confirming an inspector's decision to reject an
appeal and, on another occasion, supporting the appeal.
371. Are you happy that this description or
definition of very special circumstances is as helpful as it could
be? Do you think it should perhaps be more explicit so as to assist
local authorities?
(Mr Raynsford) I do not think it can be because once
you are explicit there are two consequences. The first is an inference
can be drawn that those circumstances, if they exist, will always
justify giving permission for a development and that would be
wrong because the whole purpose of the exceptional provision is
that development should be exceptional. The second point is that
inferences are equally drawn about what is not mentioned. It could
be that there are very special circumstances that would justify
development, which, because they have not been anticipated when
the circular is drafted, are not listed and therefore a committee
could reject an application which perhaps ought to have been considered
simply because it was not anticipated in the circular. I think
there is always a danger, if I may use this term, of the list
approach, of listing types of example in these kinds of cases.
Chairman
372. The Committee visited a site at Bromsgrove
where the local authority turned down an application for winter
quarters in the green belt. The Planning Inspector recommended
not only that approval was given to it, which I assume that you
eventually endorse, but that costs were awarded against the local
authority. What do you feel about costs against local authorities?
It does appear that in an area like this local authorities are
a little bit unwilling to take a difficult decision and pass it
on to the Planning Inspectorate. Do you think more costs should
be awarded against local authorities to discourage them doing
that?
(Mr Raynsford) Just in case it is thought that I have
been negligent and was not familiar with that case, my colleague,
Beverley Hughes, deals with planning casework in the West Midlands
so that is the reason that I would not have seen the Bromsgrove
case. In general, on decisions, it is not usual for costs to be
awarded. Costs are generally only awarded where there has been
either a failure to act in a reasonable way or where no good grounds
can be found for justifying the decision taken by the local authority.
If an inspector has concluded that costs should be awarded, it
will be because the inspector has, on the evidence, decided that
the local authority's actions were not supported by logic or the
evidence. I would be reluctant to suggest changes in that framework
because I believe that there must be a safeguard of costs in such
circumstances, but I would not be keen to encourage the awarding
of costs on a more regular basis in planning cases.
373. Finally, Planning Consultants to showmen
did suggest that if that circular was cross-referenced it would
be very helpful into PPG3. Mr Shepley suggested that the planning
guidance was already too complicated and needed to be kept as
slim as possible. What is your view?
(Mr Raynsford) As you will know from the discussions
we have had with your Committee over PPG3, there is a tension
here. On the one side, one is looking for guidance that is sufficiently
succinct and clear to make it both readable so that it does not,
in Mr Olner's phrase, end up gathering dust on shelves, so that
local authorities can make use of it. That is an important objective.
On the other hand, there is obviously a concern that it should
cover as wide a range of issues as possible. We are always trying
to balance those two competing pressures. I have already indicated
that we would be happy, in the review of PPG17, to see whether
it would be appropriate to include a reference to travelling showpeople
which could then perhaps be a cross-reference to the circular,
which I have already referred to.
374. Could I invite you to make it clear that
the government sees travelling fairs as part of our historic traditions
and that they should be offered as many facilities as local authorities
can provide them, both for their show grounds, the fairs themselves,
and it then follows that they need winter quarters?
(Mr Raynsford) I am very happy to confirm
that travelling fairs are part of the country's heritage and that
the overall planning framework which we issue and support does
encourage local authorities to look in the preparation of their
development plans, and in response to individual planning applications,
at the needs of travelling showpeople, both in terms of sites
for fairs to be held and sites for winter quarters.
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