Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 279)
WEDNESDAY 15 MARCH 2000
MR DOUG
THOROGOOD AND
MR STEPHEN
ALAMBRITIS
260. Do you have any idea what percentage of
foreign hauliers carry goods in this country?
(Mr Thorogood) There is a report that was made by
a government department which quoted that in 1998 726,000 foreign
vehicles left the United Kingdom. That meant they had to come
here in the first place and they were working in the United Kingdom.
If that figure increases beyond the point where our industry cannot
support it, obviously we are in a situation where we are dependent
on foreign hauliers doing most of our work.
Mr Stevenson
261. If you have 3,000 members with five or
fewer vehicles, we are talking about the smaller end of the industry.
Are you able to indicate how much cabotage is being operated by
non-United Kingdom hauliers?
(Mr Thorogood) That is something that I do not know
a great deal about. Most of our members work within the United
Kingdom.
262. I will come to that. Have you any idea
how much cabotage is being operated by non-United Kingdom registered
vehicles?
(Mr Thorogood) We do not have that figure.
263. Secondly, how many of your 3,000 members
with five or fewer vehicles operate other than in the United Kingdom?
(Mr Thorogood) We have not got a breakdown of exactly
what our members do but a good percentage of our members mainly
work within the United Kingdom. There are a few that do foreign
haulage.
264. 95? 90?
(Mr Alambritis) I would imagine it is around 80 per
cent.
265. Presumably, the other 20 per cent operate
to some degree continentally. Do they, to your knowledge, operate
cabotage on the continent?
(Mr Thorogood) Not to our knowledge.
266. You have no idea how the, let us say, one-fifth,
600, of your members that you assess operate internationally,
on the continent, and take advantage of the cabotage arrangements
that are equally available to them on the continent as in this
country?
(Mr Alambritis) We can try to get that information
for you.
267. You say in your evidence that as a result
of taxation and so on many larger hauliers, which presumably are
not your members, are registering their vehicles outside the United
Kingdom. Have you any figures to back that statement up?
(Mr Thorogood) We only have the information that the
Road Haulage Association has put forward to you.
268. You say the majority of small operators
cannot afford to do this. Why is that?
(Mr Thorogood) Most of our members work within the
United Kingdom. It would be too expensive for them to register
their vehicles outside with another company in Europe and then
bring them back to work purely and solely within the United Kingdom.
269. Would it be fair to suggest that, because
the majority of your members operate within the United Kingdom
and the evidence that we have had so far suggested, although it
is a bit vague, that only a very tiny percentage of internal,
United Kingdom haulage business is operating under cabotage by
non-United Kingdom registered companies, the vast majority of
your members are competing with other small operators in the United
Kingdom?
(Mr Alambritis) Yes.
270. You say in your evidence that the reduction
of pollution over the last few years certainly has been significant.
I think you quote 80 per cent. The Department of Transport says
that HGVs accounted for a third of all emissions of particles
in 1999 and 24 per cent of emissions of carbon dioxide in 1997
from road traffic, as well as contributing to noise pollution,
which we all know about. In your evidence you say that HGVs account
for 4.9 per cent of urban traffic. The question is an obvious
one. Although there has been considerable improvement over recent
years, is there still not a massive discrepancy between the amount
of pollution of carbon dioxide and particulates and noise under
the DETR figures, and the amount of urban traffic that is accounted
for by HGVs?
(Mr Thorogood) This has greatly been improved by the
European legislation that is coming through and therefore obviously
this will be always improving. The figures from a few years ago
will not necessarily reflect the full situation as vehicles improve.
Mr O'Brien
271. We often hear that the price of fuel is
crippling to the industry. What about other costs charged on the
industry? Can you give us some indication of insurance and other
matters that add to the burden of the industry?
(Mr Thorogood) We do not work as a trade association,
so we do not have the sort of figures that maybe the Freight Transport
Association or RHA would have in relation to that aspect. We look
more into the aspects of the government's overall legislation
and taxation. What is affecting one business is affecting all
the other small businesses, but obviously taxation is a big aspect
of a small business.
272. We are talking of transport here and your
members have complained about the charges of fuel as a crippling
imposition upon the industry. Are there any other charges?
(Mr Alambritis) Yes. For example, any increase in
insurance premiums or insurance premium tax, because they operate
on very tight margins, those other costs do have a play, but their
main cost is the purchase of diesel.
273. What about the Vehicle Excise Duty? Is
that a charge?
(Mr Alambritis) Yes.
274. What do they pay for a 38 tonne lorry?
(Mr Alambritis) We are a general lobby group, representing
small businesses. If we do have any figures, they come from the
specialist trade associations.
(Mr Thorogood) A 38 tonne is 3,210.
275. We are always told about the 6,000 or the
5,750, every time VED is quoted. Can you give us a proportion
as to the number of vehicles which are quoted at 3,000 for VED?
(Mr Thorogood) We do not have that breakdown because
we are not a trade association within the transport industry.
(Mr Alambritis) We can look to get that for you.
276. It would be helpful to give us a proportion
of the heavier lorries. We are given to understand that the reason
why the VED was increased was because of the volume of damage
that was done. The 44 tonnes will be the same. We have this conflicting
evidence presented to us. You, representing the smaller operators,
I felt would be a good forum to help us understand what the situation
is on that particular matter. Would you let us know what proportion
of your members are charged the higher rate and the medium rate?
(Mr Alambritis) Yes.
Mr Forsythe
277. What changes do you think should be made
to the planning policy to enable deliveries to be made more easily
to the shops?
(Mr Thorogood) Without doubt, local authority planners,
when they introduce restrictions and controls on vehicle access,
add a considerable amount of burden onto the small business sector
in particular, because again smaller companies do not have the
profit margins that they can pass on to their customers. Maybe
a multinational company can swallow those sort of percentages.
We are looking at the cost of parking fines, for argument's sake.
That could be a far greater percentage on a smaller company than
maybe a firm that has 50 vehicles and therefore can spread it
out over a much wider fleet.
278. Why should the drivers of commercial vehicles
receive preferential treatment and be allowed to park outside
shops in the middle of the day, for instance? If a scheme to give
them preferential treatment was brought in, do you not think some
of the drivers may abuse the privilege?
(Mr Thorogood) I do not think so. At the moment, we
have a situation where a great number of lorry drivers are having
extreme difficulties in getting their deliveries done in time,
not so much because they have to be there at a certain time, but
they have to get their deliveries done within their working day.
Therefore, if they cannot enter a town after ten o'clock, they
have to work out where they have to be after ten o'clock and before
four o'clock so that they can get their deliveries in in one day.
It might mean doubling back three or four times to the same area
to make a delivery within the given periods that are available.
Obviously, this adds an extreme amount of cost, especially for
a small business, that does not have the facility to cover those
sorts of costs.
279. Do you think planning policies are currently
moving in favour of night time deliveries or against?
(Mr Thorogood) For night time deliveries, that does
not help our members. Most of our members work within their own
businesses and therefore cannot be on their premises 24 hours
a day. They cannot work during the day and be there all night,
waiting for a delivery to arrive. Therefore, night time delivery
for the small business sector is not an option. There has to be
some other way of getting those deliveries in during the day time.
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