Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 299)
WEDNESDAY 15 MARCH 2000
MR DOUG
THOROGOOD AND
MR STEPHEN
ALAMBRITIS
280. Do you not think, if you are running your
own business, it would be to your advantage to remain a short
time in the evening or to come in early in the morning and take
a delivery?
(Mr Thorogood) How can you guarantee that the lorry
will be there for that delivery? He may be working all night and
he could be turning up at any time during the night. In the day
time, outside the town centres, no one can give you a delivery
time for a delivery. Therefore, you have no guarantee that it
will be in the morning or the evening, soon after you shut your
shop.
(Mr Alambritis) A lot of shopkeepers do have a trusting
relationship with deliverers and may hand over keys for the purpose
of access to the premises. There are insurance implications for
that.
Chairman
281. How many cases do you know of that?
(Mr Alambritis) There are plenty of cases, especially
bakery deliveries to small restaurants, transport cafes, greasy
spoons, where the bakery firm does have access to the key so that
they open at four or five in the morning, leave the goods and
go away, but there has to be this very trusting relationship.
There are insurance implications in case something happens to
the deliverer whilst they are in there. It is important we appreciate
the move towards pedestrianisation and traffic free areas, but
there has to be a balancing view of the wheels of industry. The
small business does not have the luxury of the superstores opening
24 hours a day. They can access deliveries any time of the day
and night. We do have an oldie-worldy high street situation throughout
the United Kingdom where the shopper appreciates the cobbled street.
Guildford comes to mind, for example. The small business there
is very reliant upon access to goods and also having too many
goods in-store at one time does run the risk of fire or theft
or what-have-you. They need replenishing very quickly. They may
be goods that are perishable. It is striking a balance and we
feel that the small business has that problem. Also, the small
business proprietor would stay behind if they could.
Miss McIntosh
282. What percentage of your membership is directly
involved in road haulage?
(Mr Alambritis) 3,000 out of 150,000 members are in
road haulage.
(Mr Thorogood) That does not include all the businesses
that run their own vehicles for transporting their own goods.
That is all the ones registered with us as road hauliers. Virtually
business has delivery vehicles of some sort other than the retail
shops for making their deliveries.
283. Can I address a question to the general
membership? Have they given you and the Federation a steer on
what the impact has been, particularly on small shops and small
businesses, of the Escalator, the increase in fuel duties, particularly
diesel, and the Vehicle Excise Duty, because I would imagine that
the impact is greater than on the 3,000 who are directly involved?
Have they given you a steer on what action they would like to
see taken?
(Mr Alambritis) Yes, they have expressed grave concern
about the Fuel Escalator. They welcome the abolition of the Fuel
Escalator. In particular, the East Midlands region is very vexed
about the cost of fuel. They have a campaign running up there
but, in the main, all the members are saying they appreciate that
any increase in fuel costs passes on to increasing the cost of
the goods that they are receiving. They are making extreme noises
about the cost of receiving goods.
Miss McIntosh
284. In answer to an earlier question from Mr
Stevenson I was delighted to hear the Federation say they are
pleased that something is going to be improved by European legislation.
We do not normally hear that from a Federation. I think it related
to the tachograph and drivers' hours. In your experience would
you say that in this country we over-appoint drivers' hours and
perhaps other Member States do not follow the letter of the legislation
as vividly?
(Mr Alambritis) There is a feeling that we gold plate,
that we are a law abiding country. We have a Civil Service enforcement
structure that certainly respects laws and enforces them rigidly
on the British road haulage Industry in particular. What vexes
the members is the more relaxed or the lax approach abroad. They
are not saying that we as a country should go down to their level
of laxity and the relaxed approach but it should be a level playing
field and they should apply the legislation and rigours equally
in the spirit and the letter of the law.
285. In the Federation's view is driver's hours
legislation about right, is it too strict or could it be made
stricter? Is the Federation happy with the drivers' hours legislation?
(Mr Thorogood) We have no objection to the current
situation and we support the road haulage's view. Just to give
you the details—on Article 18, directive 93/104 EC, we support
the Road Hauliers Association stand on that issue.
Mr O'Brien
286. We have a number of small haulage operators
attached to some companies or business as a haulage provision,
what proportion or what information do you have from your members
of the proportion of the agreements where the increase in fuel
costs or any other charges is passed on to the customer, other
than being absorbed by the haulage operator himself?
(Mr Thorogood) We do not have any figures on that
issue. The Freight Transport and Road Haulage Association would
be the most obvious way of getting that. I would just clarify
one thing, our members obviously could not in a lot of cases absorb
significant increases in fuel or VED so therefore any of those
costs will automatically eventually end up on the customers' doorstep.
287. They do not pass on to you the pressures
supplied to them from customers, people they travel for and who
are saying, "We are not going to absorb that." You do
not get that kind of report from them?
(Mr Thorogood) No, we do not.
288. How do you make representations to the
Government? Do you know exactly what the situation is and have
this information? If they do not come to you with the stress of
additional costs, how can you make representations to a Government
department if you do not have this information from them?
(Mr Thorogood) We basically cover the aspect of the
general business acumen, rather than like the CBI does to the
larger industry. We do get representations from our members on
various issues which we then take up on their behalf. We are not
a trade association and we do not take in the amount of detail
that a trade association would in relation to fuel, VED and other
matters, particularly for that one industry. We cover 100,000
different types of business industry and we cover a much wider
scope, that is the reason why we do not have that information
available.
289. You did say you represented 3,000 to 5,000
small haulage operators.
(Mr Thorogood) That is right.
290. We assume that you would have information
about the benefits of the future and the destinies of those operators.
(Mr Thorogood) We do not prioritise each type of industry
and have a separate section for that.
Chairman
291. Can I stop you there, Mr Thorogood? We
do not want you to say something which we can find from somebody
else. Mr O'Brien is making it quite clear, we thought you would
have very particular evidence. You say, for example, that you
calculate the Treasury would lose £415 million in tax revenue
this year as a result of haulage companies purchasing fuel in
Europe rather than the United Kingdom, how did that come about?
(Mr Thorogood) That came from the information I have
from the FTA.
292. Thank you. That is fine. If it is not your
information I think we are not going to pursue it. Do you know
what costs prohibit smaller haulage companies registering vehicles
in other European states?
(Mr Thorogood) Many of our members will not be in
that situation because they cannot afford it.
293. Thank you. What proportion of lorries operated
by United Kingdom hauliers are subject to a road vehicle excise
duty? We have 5,750, you told us about the 3,000, what about the
5,750?
(Mr Alambritis) We said we would get that information
for the Committee.
294. Do you think that the road haulage industry
suffers from low or non-existent profitability because of the
oversupply of vehicles and the smallness of the firms concerned?
(Mr Thorogood) I do not think there is an oversupply
of vehicles.
295. You do not think there are too many lorries
in this country and you do not think there are too many small
firms that are basically non-viable?
(Mr Thorogood) I disagree with you.
296. It is not an opinion, it is a question.
(Mr Thorogood) No. Small businesses would not be there
if there was not a market for them to trade within.
297. Yet you told us earlier on, I precis, I
hope I do not misrepresent, in fact, "Quite small changes,
very small changes", you said, "in things like VED or
fuel prices would make them non-viable."
(Mr Thorogood) That is right. They would not be there
if that was the case.
298. They are only just viable, is that what
you are saying?
(Mr Thorogood) There is not an oversupply of vehicles
because if there was then the industry would be retracting, with
the smaller businesses falling first. It is not the big ones that
will go before the small ones, the small ones will always be the
first ones to feel the effect.
299. I understand that. You actually said that
a small change would make the difference between viability and
non-viability.
(Mr Alambritis) You said it yourself, they are only
just surviving. What they are reporting to us in letters, and
surveys we do and the various discussions we have is that they
are only just tinkering along at the bottom.
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