Examination of Witnesses (Questions 306
- 319)
WEDNESDAY 15 MARCH 2000
MR RON
WEBB, MR
JIMMY HILL
AND MR
STEPHEN BALL
Chairman
306. Good evening, gentlemen. Can I ask you
to identify yourselves for the record, please?
(Mr Webb) My name is Ron Webb, I am the National Secretary
of the Road Transport Commercial Group for the Transport and General
Workers Union.
(Mr Hill) I am Jimmy Hill, I am the National
Chairman for the RTC and lorry drivers of the country, Transport
and General Workers Union.
(Mr Ball) Stephen Ball from the National Committee
of the Transport and General Workers Union and lorry driver, TGWU.
307. Can I tell you a few ground rules, the
microphones in front of you record but do not project. If you
agree with one another please do not interrupt, if you do not
agree with one another please indicate. Can I start off by asking
you, to what extent are the regulations that govern the road haulage
industry currently ignored in the United Kingdom?
(Mr Webb) We believe, Chairman, that the current regulations
in the United Kingdom—and the question by virtue of its
delivery can be a general question because there are so many regulations
facing the industry, as you know—are regularly being commonly
flouted in the industry, such as drivers' hours regulations. We
also believe that health and safety regulations are constantly
being flouted in the industry.
308. Do you want to put figures on this, Mr
Webb?
(Mr Webb) I am not in position to do that today but
I can present figures at a later date if you so desire.
309. Not too much later, Mr Webb.
(Mr Webb) Okay. I will consider that a formal request
and be happy to send that you information in the next few weeks.
310. Let me put it to you like this, Mr Webb,
you may consider it a request, however I think it is more of an
order—
(Mr Webb) Yes, Chairman.
311.—as an ex-T&GW worker speaking.
(Mr Webb) The issue of regulations is an extremely
important question about which we are very pleased to be asked.
We constantly campaign as a Union to ensure that employers constantly
uphold the proper regulations as standards within the industry.
312. What is your experience of the regulations?
Which regulation is the most ignored, do you have a black list?
(Mr Webb) Drivers' hours, we believe there are massive
abuses.
313. Even with the tachograph?
(Mr Webb) Even with the tachograph. We believe there
is excessive manipulation of the tachograph. We are hopeful that
in the future with the introduction of the new black-box digital
tachograph that there will be immense improvements to that. However,
I can only speak currently and factually from what we have today
and it is my view there is, without doubt, mass manipulation of
tachograph offences.
314. Is there an unspoken collusion between
the driver and the employer?
(Mr Webb) I think certainly there is some of that,
undoubtedly, taking place. I believe, forgive me for saying this,
that is tending to take place with the smaller type of operator.
The common pronunciation we have is bandits in the industry. We
do believe that there are, quite frankly, low standards, whether
it be on regulation or whether it be on employment rights, and
many other issues. We believe that, unfortunately, that abuse
is quite extensive.
Mr Stevenson
315. In your evidence you say that incentive
pay schemes are common in the road haulage industry. We have asked
a number of employers about incentive pay schemes and the general
view we had, it is fair to say, from the oral evidence is that
they do not operate and they reject them. Can you be a bit more
specific, what sort of percentage are we talking about when you
talk about, "it is common"? Is it 50 per cent, 80 per
cent?
(Mr Webb) On this question can I ask my colleague
Mr Ball to answer?
(Mr Stephen Ball) They are prevalent. The simple fact
is that with haulage industries you have a lot of small companies
so you cannot get a true figure of who is operating those systems
but it is there all of the time. There are even large companies
operating bonus systems to encourage drivers to speed, break the
law, not have the breaks. You cannot really put a figure on how
many there are. It is there, it is going on all of the time.
316. Forgive me, if this is an important issue—and
the evidence coming forward so far suggests that it is, and your
Union say that it is common—if the Committee were minded
to reflect this in its report, and we have to wait and see, simply
putting in there, "it is common in the industry", would
not be sufficient. We need your evidence to clarify that rather
more than it is at the moment, as difficult as it may be.
(Mr Webb) If I can come back on that point, statistical
information is that it is taking place on a percentage basis of
about 40 per cent in our industry.
317. In your evidence, this is the Working Time
Directive, you say you believe that employers could devise new
systems of work to fit into that Directive. Again, the evidence
we have had from what are claimed to be—I have no doubt
they are—very efficient national operators is they are very
worried about the implementation of the Working Time Directive,
particularly in terms of night operation. Could you offer a bit
more clarification as to what are the other factors that led you
to believe that employers could devise new structures and perhaps
briefly what those new structures may be?
(Mr Webb) The question that you ask, Mr Stevenson,
is an extremely important question, a short response to it I doubt
will do it justice, nevertheless I will try and be as swift as
I can. The most important issue, I believe, facing the industry
is the Working Time Directive, when it is coming in and how it
is going to be implemented, more importantly. At this moment in
time there are proposals being supported by the current Government
that would exclude the self-employed from the Working Time Directive
and on top of that give the employers and workers the ability
to opt out from the provisions—two fundamental areas we
believe that will considerably weaken the objective of the Working
Time Directive. The employers in the industry are clearly stating
that they believe there will be considerable increased costs on
the back of the implementation of the Working Time Directive.
For our part we believe that there will be an increase in cost
but we do not share with the employers organisations, the RHA
or the FGA in this particular case, their analysis of the soaring
costs view. We believe that with a more effective rota, through
more effective shift patterns—particularly being shifted
and rotated around the night work provision, around the twenty-four
hour clock—and through better improved productivity and
flexibility they can marginalise that cost, Mr Stevenson.
Mr Bennett
318. What does marginalised mean?
(Mr Webb) Reduce the overall net effect.
319. One per cent, two per cent, ten per cent,
fifteen per cent?
(Mr Webb) To be perfectly honest we have not done
that calculation at this stage.
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