Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320
- 339)
WEDNESDAY 15 MARCH 2000
MR RON
WEBB, MR
JIMMY HILL
AND MR
STEPHEN BALL
Mr Stevenson
320. If there are further details, could you
let us have that as that would be helpful. The last question,
in the evidence you submitted there is quite a section about the
haulage fuel duty rebate. I do not wish to go into the detail
behind it but what interested me, and it interested me even more
when you talk about regulations being flouted, was the section
in your evidence when you say that essentially users need to be
defined by a different mechanism. Such a mechanism would need
to be handled and travelled through traffic commissioners. Are
you satisfied that the traffic commissioners are up to their job
and can take on further responsibility and at the same time are
you satisfied with the enforcements through the D&T in terms
of general enforcement? If not, in both those areas what would
you suggest needed to be done to bring about the necessary improvements?
(Mr Webb) I am not quite sure, Mr Stevenson, but I
think there were three questions contained within your enquiries,
first of all the issue of enforcement. We have, again, campaigned
for improved enforcement, increased enforcement. It is our view
that the Vehicle Inspectorate is grossly under- resourced and
does need to be resourced far better than it is now, we have been
saying that for years and will state that today. I do not feel
they are resourced enough to take on this particular task, as
has been structured today. I do obviously, as stated in the submission,
feel if they were properly resourced it is a task that they are
quick to undertake. In reference to the whole issue of enforcement
there is in conjunction with the Working Time Directive, I believe,
one of the biggest issues facing the industry today. There are
not enough roadside checks taking place in the industry. We do
support a prohibition of any vehicle approach.
Chairman
321. Impounding are you saying?
(Mr Webb) Impounding, very much so. We do support
that whole-heartedly. It is very much a standards issue. Coming
back to the whole issue of enforcement, if we then connect that—and
a number of these questions come back to some of your previous
questions—to the Working Time Directive, my concern is whatever
we do find in place when a common approach is agreed that a lack
of ability to enforce the Working Time Directive, quite frankly,
will be very significant. At the moment the enforcement agencies
on the Working Time Directive for the first phase, the horizontal
stage, are the Health & Safety Inspectorate and the industrial
tribunals. From my particular point of view and the Union's point
of view the Working Time Directive will have to be monitored,
it will have to be somehow bedded and wedded into the whole issue
of enforcement because it is connected to tachographs, drivers'
hours. That is what we are talking about with the Working Time
Directive. If we are saying logically and generally that the all-important
agencies in the transport industry are going to the Health &
Safety Inspectorate and the industrial tribunals again, I believe
they are under-resourced and I fear, quite frankly, whatever is
in place is going to be chronically abused as a regulation.
Mr O'Brien
322. Do you think it is too easy to get into
the haulage business?
(Mr Webb) Yes, sir.
323. Can you give us an indication as to why
you consider that to be so?
(Mr Webb) I think quite frankly that the issue of
finance clearly is an important issue as to the integrity and
credibility of the applicant coming into the industry. All too
often we see people who are on very small incomes coming into
the industry who do not have the proper and adequate resources
to meet the regulations and the standards that industry requires.
My understanding is that an individual wishing to start up their
own operation needs to provide something in the region of £2,500.
If we look at standards elsewhere, Netherlands is something in
the region of £14,000. In other countries in Europe the average
is from £5,000 onwards. I have the statistical figures with
me today.
324. Can you give us an indication, in your
opinion, as to the dangers to reputable operators because of the
introduction of the person who comes in, threatening to the close
other people down, undercutting? Do you have any experience of
this kind of thing, where reputable operators are suffering?
(Mr Hill) You have to appreciate we have people coming
into the industry who work like subcontractors to a big company,
they get to know the running of the contract and invariably nine
times out of the ten they will go away, build up from their two
or three vehicles to possibly ten or fifteen vehicles and then
put a tender in for that particular contract. They can undercut
the overheads of a bigger company and invariably the big company
cuts the rates for the actual contract and it gets to be a vicious
circle. You have the bigger company doing it at a loss to retain
the particular customer because he probably has a contract for
something else.
325. The inferences in that comment, Mr Hill,
are that the charges for haulage operations are too low?
(Mr Hill) It is very, very low. They get transport
very cheap in this country. I will be honest, as a matter of fact
they get it for next to nothing. You cannot blame the haulier
for that. I have to defend the haulier because it is the big household
names that are screwing the company down on costs. If you get
a fuel increase and the fuel increase goes up 15 pence a gallon,
which sometimes it does, you cannot pass that on to the customer
because the customer says, "Tough, you will have to soak
it up", but the big supermarket chains put one pence, two
pence or even five pence on a tin of beans and he gets his cut
because of the increased cost, but he does not have the increased
cost, it is the haulier that has to suffer it.
326. Your members suffer too, do they not?
(Mr Hill) The company we are working for say, "We
cannot afford a pay increase". I do not honestly think road
hauliers have had a decent increase in revenue in the last eight
years.
Chairman
327. What is the average wage per week?
(Mr Hill) We have just reached—
328. Do you have a basic rate?
(Mr Hill) The average wage for pushing a 38 ton lorry
is the region of £3.75 to £4.00 an hour. You have the
big boys who get £5.00 to £6.00 an hour but they are
tied up to what is called an incentive bonus. Car delivery can
now get up to £800 a week but their basic pay is only £189,
so if there is no cars to move that is what they come down to.
What has reared its head in our industry once again—we thought
it had disappeared—is trip money and a percentage of your
load. If you have two trips a week and you do not get another
three trips, you only get paid for two days. If you work Monday,
Tuesday and Wednesday and you have good loads going out and Thursday
and Friday you have no loads, your wages come back down again.
In organised firms I have to honestly say we are getting towards
the magical figure of £5 an hour, which is still not a lot
of money. Being a driver I have to honestly say the country is
getting the driver and the transport dirt cheap.
329. What percentage of your members are on
incentive schemes?
(Mr Hill) It varies, different companies have different
incentive schemes.
330. How many will be on incentive schemes?
(Mr Hill) Incentive schemes are good timekeeping,
no accidents, things like that. We do not have many of our organised
companies on mileage bonuses.
331. What about delivery time?
(Mr Hill) We have "Just in Time" which has
created major problems. If you start out from the M6 or the M1
and it is a notorious stretch of motorway and you start out well
in time, you could be an hour before your time—I can use
a classic example of going around a group of companies like ASDA—you
are loaded at the first one on time, by the time you get to the
second or third they are creating hell and you say, "Hang
on, I was at the other shop before yours", they are all in
the same group but they do not want to know that and they put
penalty clauses on the company for being late. It is not the company
that is late, it is the customer you are delivering to. You will
turn up at a company when you are booked in at 8 o'clock but there
are another six or seven wagons all booked in at the same time.
It is virtually impossible to unload all of those wagons at the
same time and that is the problem.
332. That delays you.
(Mr Hill) If you are number eight in a row of eight,
you probably do not get tipped until about 12 o'clock and this
is what is causing the problems.
333. What is the percentage of incentives to
the wage?
(Mr Hill) To be quite honest I do not know the percentage,
not being involved in national agreements, because there are local
agreements and national agreements. I do not know whether Mr Webb
knows the actual percentage on his side because he does a lot
of national negotiations.
(Mr Webb) There is a variety of incentive schemes,
productivity schemes, flexibility.
Chairman
334. What we are trying to get at, and you can
see the difficulty we are in, how many of your members would be
on what is really an agreed lowest rate and how many of those
routinely are involved in some kind of incentive scheme over and
above that?
(Mr Webb) The vast majority of our members are on
incentive schemes that support and top-up what, quite frankly,
is a low basic rate of pay.
335. Have you taken any evidence as to whether
or not that has an effect on driver fatigue?
(Mr Webb) It is our view that it very much does and
it plays a major part to driver fatigue.
336. Is your evidence anecdotal or is it recorded
or do you have a specific health and safety officer in individual
branches taking records?
(Mr Webb) My understanding is there was an exercise
completed about ten years ago from our organisation but we have
not updated that since.
Chairman: You might like to suggest to your
General Secretary that it might be a good idea if he did again.
Mr Bennett
337. Health and Safety do not check drivers'
hours, do they?
(Mr Webb) No.
338. Would it be a good idea if they did? If
they check the driver unloading and loading at factory premises
it seems a little illogical they do not check once the vehicle
is on the road?
(Mr Webb) It is actually an excellent point of view
and I often wondered why they could not take on part of this responsibility.
Certainly I think it is something that has to be given serious
consideration in reference to the Working Time Directive.
Miss McIntosh
339. Could I just ask you, you said in your
view there are massive abuses of the drivers' hours, do you think
it is worse in this country than in any other European country?
(Mr Webb) My perception—I fear being asked for
statistical information at this stage, I say that with a degree
of respect, of course—is that, without doubt, there are
abuses being undertaken in this country that are more severe and
greater than in other countries, yes.
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