Examination of Witnesses (Questions 400
- 419)
WEDNESDAY 22 MARCH 2000
MR DAVID
LOWE, MR
GRAHAM EWER,
MR MIKE
GIDLOW, MR
ANDREW IVES
AND MR
DAVID ATTON
400. The Republic of Ireland are taking action
to prevent it from happening. May I ask the Institution of Mechanical
Engineers if they could explain more fully how they envisage the
transport between and within cities in the future?
(Mr Gidlow) With no vested interest, but standing
above and looking at the movement of freight overall within the
United Kingdom, I think our concern was that in the long haul
inter-city movement of freight we ought to see somehow a more
competitive rail option versus road haulage. For a number of reasons,
that competitive edge on rail does not exist. We seem to have,
as I said before, a 20th century road network and a 19th century
rail system with lots of inhibitions. So I think our overall thrust
was that we either have to accommodate continually increasing
freight on the roads and the roads, as we know, are already becoming
very congested and repaired very often, or find an alternative
to that. But finally there will be points with which there are
no alternative competitors. Road has to deliver finally from explosion
points in the centres of urbanisation to deploy the goods finally
to the shops and premises and so on, so our perception was we
really ought to have a significant alternative system for long
haul inter-city routes and in particular when you take major docks
like Felixstowe or Dover where there is a horrendous traffic flow
and freight flow, we have exceedingly poor rail links. It occurred
to us that we should be developing that alternative and road haulage,
in a way, we should try to consider unspecialised within the shorter
haul, lighter loads that will not have intercontinental juggernauts
blocking High Streets in small towns; that would be done by light
trucks and vans, for example. So it seemed to us as though the
whole infrastructure was compromised by the fact that we did not
have a fully viable and competitive inter-city system and standing
back technically we can understand reasons why that is so and
of course there are some technical but costly solutions.
401. What costs would be involved in widening
perhaps the railways to accommodate the lorries?
(Mr Gidlow) We do not know, but we hope to get our
arms around that in the coming months. It is clearly going to
be significant in terms of increasing tunnel heights—it
is mostly height rather than width—but when we consider
what the alternatives are, presumably to handle ever-increasing
freight by road, it is more motorways.
Chairman
402. I would like to recommend that you read
one of the reports that this Committee did on bridges which will
help you?.
(Mr Gidlow) Thank you, Madam Chairman.
Chairman: Miss McIntosh?
Miss McIntosh: Thank you, Madam Chairman. May
I ask what your respective organisations' views are of the two
pence per litre increase on fuel duty on diesel has been for the
road haulage industry?
Chairman
403. Someone? Anyone?
(Mr Ewer) Why not me?
404. Mr Ewer?
(Mr Ewer) I give you a split answer, I think. The
first thing is to welcome the fact that the increase in fuel is
related to a known indicator of inflation and so on. The second
is to say—and I think you would expect me to say this—that
any increase in cost is not welcome. But it is, I think, welcome
that it is related to an increase in inflation rather than anything
else.
Miss McIntosh
405. Dr Ladyman said earlier that he had personally
not seen any evidence of increased competition from European operators.
Do you have any evidence you would like to put before the Committee
this afternoon that will indicate that, particularly since cabotage
routes have been opened up to competition because of the lower
cost of fuel duty and VED, that you are facing increased competition?
(Mr Ewer) Well, it is our understanding, having as
I say not relied on hard, statistical evidence which I have to
agree, that there is market penetration by foreign operators who
are in a position to come over here, taking advantage of the cheaper
fuel at source and acquire some business. The extent of that is
very hard to gauge as are a number of things in quantitative terms
in this area.
406. If this is the case, would you support
the `Brit-disc' or the `Euro-Vignette' to ensure that whereas
at the moment these foreign competitors, non-British competitors,
do not pay towards the cost of the damage they do to our roads,
would you be in favour of some recognition of that through a `Brit-disc'
or a `Euro-Vignette'?
(Mr Ewer) Yes, I think we would say that that has
considerable qualities. I think it would assist in terms of true
knowledge of who was involved in the operation. It would be broadly
in keeping with what else is going on within the European Union
in terms of similar style schemes in Germany, the Netherlands
and so on and would contribute to the question of the cost of
damage to roads, or wear and tear on roads, by vehicles entering
the country. So we would be supportive of that sort of approach.
Chairman: Mr Bennett?
Mr Bennett
407. Briefly. Impounding vehicles which break
the regulations? Good idea?
(Mr Ewer) I think this is a very topical area. We
think that there is considerable scope for increasing the enforcement
of regulation. It was interesting to see in the Chancellor's proposals
yesterday that there was £285 million to go to the Police.
How much of that might go in the enforcement of regulation, I
do not know. There is broad support from those in the industry,
as we assess it, for impounding as a very strong deterrent for
abuse of regulation. There is nothing like, if you are stopped
and you are in the wrong, losing the use of the vehicle straight
away. But we must recognise that if that is to be the case then
there will need to be a measure of investment in the means of
doing it. We feel the Traffic Commissioners have some potential
here for adding to the enforcement, but as a principle, yes, we
think it has quite an important contribution to make.
408. Is it practical? I mean, if you have a
refrigerated trailer or if you have a fair number of sheep in
the back of a big transporter it is going to present some problems,
is it not, for whoever takes responsibility for the impounded
vehicle?
(Mr Ewer) Yes, it certainly is, which is why I make
the point—at perhaps too low a key—of the need for
investment in the means of enforcing in a proper way, but if you
put things in that context of course the impact of impounding
under those sort of circumstances, with perishables and so on
would be a very strong deterrent.
409. Ought there to be checks on all vehicles
crossing the channel? It is a simple point, it is at a time when
the vehicle is not on the road. Would it be a point at which all
vehicles should be checked?
(Mr Ewer) I am not sure of the practicalities of that
really, Mr Bennett. Would you envisage perhaps some kind of rolling
inspection whilst going through the tunnel or something of that
kind? That does not quite fit in with the safety rules for the
tunnel and you could end up, if you were checking every vehicle,
a situation of long delays perhaps at the entry or exit of the
tunnel.
410. Moving on. Deliveries, particularly where
shopping centres have been pedestrianised, is that a major problem
to the industry?
(Mr Ewer) I would go further than that and suggest
that it is probably one of the biggest problems that is facing
not only the industry, but also society and planners in particular
in the future. It is with us now, I think, in the shape of e-commerce
and the impact of greater choice for the individual to have home
delivery and I think will become all the more important as e-business
practice gets an even stronger hold in the supply chain because
it extends actually outside pedestrianised town centres to the
overall plan for a town and for the various focuses there might
be for distribution. It is an area where, quite frankly, only
the closest co-operation between the industry, local planners
and others involved is going see a cure, because there is the
possibility of quite difficult distribution explosions involving
a number of light vehicles to deliver to each individual address
rather than to a store, for example. So I think I would agree
with you that this is a challenging area.
Chairman: We are getting a bit tight on time
and there are a couple more to go.
Mr Bennett
411. Very quickly then; do the planning laws
need to be changed?
(Mr Ewer) I think in answer to that question, there
may be a case for looking at laws affecting land use, but land
use is a very long term instrument I think in this area.
412. People get planning permission on occasions
on condition that certain things apply. Does that need changing?
Yes or no will do.
(Mr Ewer) No will do, I think, but what I would stress
is that I think it is a cultural change in terms of people working
together to get a solution that is so important.
413. Right. Now the 44 tonne lorries. How much
extra is that going to cost local authorities in terms of old
cobbled streets, sewers, those sort of things?
(Mr Lowe) I cannot answer that; I do not think we
have those figures. I think that is something that the local authorities
themselves would have to answer. I am not aware of any studies
that have been done and published that give a direct indication
of what those costs might be.
Chairman
414. Mr Gidlow, did you want to say something
under pedestrianisation?
(Mr Gidlow) A couple of things, just very quickly.
One is that a lot of the huge retail parks are really sited in
terms of proximity to motorways, it is all motor access, motor
access. This again emphasises the fact that goods have to go in
and come out by road and there is not a rail alternative. Planning
permissions for future huge retail centres with, I think, proximity
to an alternative source of transporting the goods in would be
hugely—
415. A few more Section 8 grants to get their
own little railway siding, is that what we are suggesting? All
right, I was not entirely serious. Gentlemen, one or two very
quick ones and then I will let you go. What benefits can there
be to a government led scheme to scrap less efficient older vehicles?
(Mr Ives) I think in our paper, Madam Chairman, we
identified a number of impacts of changing the technology to the
power train upgrading. These are short term opportunities for
the Government to take an initiative and they have impact on the
exhaust quality coming out of the vehicle, they have an impact
over the efficiency of the use of fuel because you would be upgrading
the engines to be more efficient engines. They will have improvement
to the infrastructure; you would not be emitting and there would
be less noise. So in our estimation, on that question, there are
three areas where there is direct impact and improvements to be
made to the quality of life in this country.
416. Have you quantified what that would cost?
(Mr Ives) We have not done that but we would be more
than willing to look at that question.
417. Have a look at it for us and put something
in, will you? Can you tell us what potential there is to manufacture
zero emission and compressed natural gas vehicles which ought
to be able to operate economically?
(Mr Gidlow) Zero emissions, I will have to say, on
long hauls is not within even the normal longer term forecasts—
418. Right, fine.
(Mr Gidlow)—but for local urbanisation deliveries
then hybrid electric vehicles for town and inter-city deliveries
are very feasible.
419. What then ought the Government be doing
to investigate the use of other fuels?
(Mr Gidlow) I think competitive pressures are really
obliging all the major manufacturers of trucks, cars, buses to
be looking at competitive fuels all the time and there are a number
of competing systems and the rate at which they will come onto
the market we cannot judge. The Government could assist, I think,
in formulating policies which say, for example—I do not
know—five miles radius from the city centre of London or
other major areas only transport which is zero emitting can come
into these regions and if such a policy was implemented then,
for example, hybrid electric cars and trucks would quickly emerge
from the product plans of major companies.
|
