Examination of Witnesses (Questions 580
- 599)
WEDNESDAY 29 MARCH 2000
MR JOHN
NEWTON, MR
EDWARD STOBART,
MR EDWARD
RODERICK AND
MR VAUGHAN
WOOLFITT
580. Do you think they should be banned?
(Mr Stobart) I personally do, yes. We pay drivers
by the hour.
(Mr Roderick) If I may say, this is where I will disagree
with one of my colleagues. We do pay our drivers incentives but
not incentives to break the law. We pay them incentives to help
us in filling our vehicles more efficiently internally and in
making better utilisation of those vehicles. Certainly we as a
public company, as with Edward for that matter, would never encourage
anybody to break the law and would not do so. It is not our desire
to do so but there are people who do it.
581. So you would like to see that stamped out.
What about vehicles which are illegal? As far as I can see the
spot checks that are taken on vehicles tend to be at fixed places
because of the logistics of it, and so anyone who is really running
a vehicle which is not meeting the law just avoids the places
where those checks are?
(Mr Roderick) If I may, Mr Bennett, I can actually
tell you it is slightly worse than that. I went to a presentation
a couple of years ago by the group called Brake who are concerned
about safety on the roads, as you know. A Metropolitan policeman
said that they had to do so many stops per day or per week or
per month and therefore they stopped the most efficient operators
because they knew it would take them less time to do the checks
and make the numbers. We would like to see the checks moved away
from volume and more to quality.
Chairman
582. He may have been slightly pulling your
leg.
(Mr Roderick) He made the statement in a public comment
and it was recorded and I did actually write to the minister about
it and got a bit of a dusty reply if I remember, at the time.
Mr Donohoe
583. We might like to see that.
(Mr Roderick) If you wish a copy of the correspondence
I will do so. He said it was the responsibility of the police
authority to implement the controls.
Mr Bennett
584. So you would like to see much more vigorous
implementation of controls. What about impounding vehicles which
fail?
(Mr Roderick) Absolutely.
(Mr Stobart) Absolutely, 100 per cent.
585. Is not freight too cheap? Would it not
be better if it was dearer to encourage people to buy more locally?
If we take 25 years ago most of the beer drunk in Greater Manchester
was brewed in Greater Manchester. People in Greater Manchester
now drink beer and lager which are brewed almost all over Europe.
(Mr Stobart) Hear, hear.
Chairman
586. It depends on your definition of "beer".
(Mr Roderick) I think the reason that you have centralisation
of manufacturing is because it is more efficient on a unit cost
basis.
Mr Bennett
587. It is also because you are providing a
very cheap transport system.
(Mr Roderick) No, we do not provide a cheap transport
system. We provide an efficient transport system.
Chairman
588. Are drivers' hours too high at the moment?
(Mr Roderick) Not in my judgment.
Mr Bennett
589. You started off by telling us how efficient
you were. Is it not logical that European hauliers reach that
same efficiency? If they reach that same level of efficiency should
not they be taking some of the business away from you anyway?
(Mr Roderick) If you are good at any business that
you do you try to maintain your market lead, so as quick as they
try to catch us up we are working to maintain our lead against
them.
Chairman
590. What would be your view of the suggestion
that drivers' hours should be reduced to 10 a day?
(Mr Stobart) Actually driving 10 a day?
Mr Donohoe
591. No, eight hours driving.
(Mr Stobart) At the moment the legal limit is nine,
or you can drive two 10s if you want, but then you can only drive
two eights. Any move on drivers' hours obviously puts the cost
up of road transport. More control over exceeding the legal hours
at the moment would be a better solution.
Chairman
592. In effect what you are saying is that rather
than organising it in a particular way yourselves you would rather
that this was imposed from outside?
(Mr Stobart) Yes.
593. What estimates have been made of the effect
of the Working Time Directive?
(Mr Roderick) I can tell you in my French businesses
where they have reduced hours it is about 8.5 per cent—
594. Eight and a half per cent overall?
(Mr Roderick) Of the labour costs within the businesses
that we have.
595. Just the labour costs?
(Mr Roderick) Yes, and that is about three per cent
on the net costs.
596. Would anybody else like to give a view
on the Working Time Directive?
(Mr Stobart) No.
Mr Gray
597. Coming back to the question of whether
or not you are just doing special pleading, to what degree would
you say that each of your businesses' profits have been significantly
affected in the last twelve months by VED and fuel? For example,
are you likely to be going out of business? Has your share price
collapsed? Are you facing the breadline or are you just feeling
a bit of a squeeze?
(Mr Roderick) I think the answer is that we are not
going out of business, certainly I am not, and I do not think
Edward is for that matter. We are always under the squeeze from
our clients anyway, but what we are actually arguing here for
is the maintenance of the competitiveness of our industry within
our country on a level playing field against the other countries
of Europe. We are not saying we are going to go bust, we are not
saying that we are all in desperate trouble. What we are saying
is that we want a level playing field in order to maintain the
competitiveness of what we do.
598. The reason for that being jobs?
(Mr Roderick) Of course.
(Mr Stobart) Yes, and, to go back to one of my earlier
points, we should not have to rush to Belgium to register vehicles.
I do not want to do that. I think you picked me up wrong last
time.
Chairman: We are all Europeans now, Mr Stobart,
so they tell me.
Dr Ladyman: I wanted to pick up on the point
you have just made about being squeezed by your customers. Everybody
else I have come into contact with who provides services to the
major supermarket chains finds that they have to provide those
services at margins that seem impossible to survive on to the
extent that people from farmers to dressmakers are being driven
out of business whilst the supermarkets seem to be making very
large margins at their end of it. What is your experience of dealing
with supermarkets? If the industry is under pressure, to what
extent are they contributing to the problems?
Chairman
599. If you are going to say they are all fine
upstanding people, do not bother.
(Mr Roderick) We have all been pressured for a very
long time but that is because the consumers want lower prices
and they want better choice of products. The choice is always
there that you do not actually contract with them if you cannot
make the profits that you want out of it. Then if there are insufficient
people to provide the services the price goes up. The fact is
that we do live in a competitive environment. We do, each as individuals,
want lower prices, better quality products.
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