Examination of Witnesses (Questions 700
- 719)
WEDNESDAY 29 MARCH 2000
LORD WHITTY,
MS ANGELA
MOSS, AND
MR IAIN
TODD
700. You are going to impound vehicles, is that
right?
(Lord Whitty) We are going to introduce legislation
that gives us the right to impound. We will not impound vehicles
for the sake of it, we will use it mainly as a deterrent.
701. Is it going to work?
(Lord Whitty) I think impounding is a pretty substantial
deterrent. I think it is important we now have agreement to put
this in the Transport Bill.
Chairman
702. This Transport Bill going through the House
at the moment?
(Lord Whitty) Indeed.
Mr Bennett
703. What are the implications if you have a
vehicle that is carrying a load of sheep? Sheep transporters always
seem to me to be some of the most dodgy vehicles on the road,
who is going to look after the sheep while it is impounded?
(Lord Whitty) You appear to be more familiar with
sheep transporters than I am. Clearly the inspectorate will have
to have some regard to the cargo and the perishability of the
cargo.
704. What about that sort of vehicle or ones
with refrigeration units, is the temptation going to be we will
not stop that one because it might cause us a problem storing?
(Lord Whitty) I do not think that is a temptation.
The vehicles will be stopped, whether they will be impounded will
depend upon whether they are operated illegally, we will obviously
need to take into account the effect on the cargo and if they
are live animals that is a particular problem.
705. I just picked that outI would have
thought that people who knew a bit more about the industry than
I do could pick out one or two others where there might be problems
with impounding.
(Lord Whitty) Nobody is saying there will not be problems.
The threat of impounding, the possibility of impounding applies
in all of these areas. The degree to which we would actually impound
in particular circumstances does need consideration on a case-by-case
basis, it may also need some discussion with the individual sectors
of the road haulage industry as to how you deal with particular
circumstances. Obviously we would need to engage in consultation
on that once the primary legislation goes through.
706. Is there a shortage of qualified drivers
or should more be trained?
(Lord Whitty) Probably more should be trained. We
have taken steps in terms of the driver training scheme for 16
to 19 year olds, it has been extended to 20 to encourage more
people in to get their HGV licence at 21. As with certain other
slightly less attractive jobs, social and family purposes, there
are more people who have a HGV licence than are practising HGV
licence drivers. To say there is a shortage is not easy to establish.
There is a shortage of people who, for various reasons, wish to
take it up, the number of holders.
707. If they were paid more they might attract
many of the people who have a licence back.
(Lord Whitty) Pay is part of it certainly.
708. You can only hold a licence for a fairly
short period without driving.
(Lord Whitty) Can anybody help me out on how long
that is?
Chairman: Two years. We are happy to supply
the answers as well as ask the questions.
Dr Ladyman: I was approached by a constituent
a year or so ago because the classes of the tests were being changed
so that you could drive different classes of vehicle. He provided
a HGV driving instruction service and his view was that it was
no longer worth people training for a Class 1 licence because
the additional cost involved in going for a Class 1 licence was
so much greater than a Class 2 and people could earn a perfectly
satisfactory living at Class 2. He found that his business was
drying up with people willing to make that extra step into Class
1. Do you have any evidence of that as a result of the changes
that have been made to the testing of HGV licences?
Chairman
709. We are happy to have a supplementary note
on some of these things. If the Department has information we
are happy to have that supplementary. I want to ask you two or
three small matters before I allow you to escape. Is it too easy
to get into the industry?
(Lord Whitty) It is an industry in which the threshold
of entering is fairly low. By and large we think it has to be
a competitive industry, we do not wish to put artificial barriers
there.
710. Where it is low you accept that?
(Lord Whitty) I broadly accept it. The question of
the financial status of operators needs some addressing, apart
from that I accept that it is and probably will continue to be
and should continue to be relatively easy to go into the industry,
provided you are qualified.
711. Have you discussed the whole business of
the financial probity? We have heard quite horrifying stories
of how people establish their financial probity. You are seriously
considering whether the step should not be a higher step in relation
to financial probity. Good. We can expect some answer to that
at some point in the near future.
(Lord Whitty) Certainly the traffic commissioners
are looking at it and we shall listen to their advice.
712. Are there too many vehicles in the industry?
Are they competing in such a way that they are able to undercut
one another because there are too many vehicles?
(Lord Whitty) There are more vehicles in the industry
than there are on the road in an active economic activity at any
given time. We want to encourage the turnover of vehicles so that
we get cleaner, better vehicles and more efficient vehicles.
713. You have just told us it is easy to get
in, there is not any particular way of pushing owners into getting
new and better vehicles but you are still quite content there
should be more vehicles that are economically capable of being
viable, is that what you said?
(Lord Whitty) I suppose I am saying if we decide in
arithmetic terms there are too many vehicles, what do you do about
it? We want newer, cleaner and more efficient vehicles.
714. I know what you want. We have had a clear
indication of your wishes. If it is an industry that is very easy
to get into, where the steps concerned in order to prove your
financial probity and general viability are not high and where
you say that in the name of private enterprise they should be
allowed to do whatever they like, are we to take your protestations
about caring about climate change and other aspects of the environment
terribly seriously?
(Lord Whitty) Yes, I think so. I would hope so. When
we say it is easy to enter the industry, it is easy to enter the
industry provided your vehicles are safe. We are tidying up and
trying to enforce better safety standards.
715. How many people are you going to need to
get that level of enforcement? What urgent talks did you have
with the Home Office about the need for enforcement? We are told
consistently enforcement, enforcement, tachographs, quality of
drivers hours. We are given all this anecdotal evidence, East
German drivers coming in, although we are unable to establish
the size of it. What are the Department doing about enforcement?
If you are saying to us we can deal with this because we know
we have good enforcement, what can you do that demonstrates that?
(Lord Whitty) We have enforcement into the entry of
the industry through the Traffic Commission.
716. That is very low, we have just agreed.
You are looking at that. Let us not do that one again.
(Lord Whitty) On that point, you asked me whether
it was the near future, the consultation will be completed this
summer.
717. Not the near future.
(Lord Whitty) Fairly near future. Reasonably near
future. We have also agreed with the Treasury that the licence
income can now be hypothecated back to the Vehicle Inspectorate
and that will give them more resources. We improved technology
of the Vehicle Inspectorate and we are improving the facilities
of the Vehicle Inspectorate and we are taking steps to increase
the quantity and quality of enforcement. I do believe that that
does have a fairly strong deterrent value. I accept, however,
as I said earlier, there is still a serious problem of illegal
operators on our roads.
718. Do you want to tell us what proportion
of tax paid by road users was paid by the road haulage industry?
(Lord Whitty) The proportion of total tax take?
719. What proportion was paid by road hauliers?
(Mr Todd) The most recent year for which we have figures
is 1997/1998 and the total tax for VED and fuel duty was £23.8
billion.
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