Select Committee on Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 700 - 719)

WEDNESDAY 29 MARCH 2000

LORD WHITTY, MS ANGELA MOSS, AND MR IAIN TODD

  700. You are going to impound vehicles, is that right?
  (Lord Whitty) We are going to introduce legislation that gives us the right to impound. We will not impound vehicles for the sake of it, we will use it mainly as a deterrent.

  701. Is it going to work?
  (Lord Whitty) I think impounding is a pretty substantial deterrent. I think it is important we now have agreement to put this in the Transport Bill.

Chairman

  702. This Transport Bill going through the House at the moment?
  (Lord Whitty) Indeed.

Mr Bennett

  703. What are the implications if you have a vehicle that is carrying a load of sheep? Sheep transporters always seem to me to be some of the most dodgy vehicles on the road, who is going to look after the sheep while it is impounded?
  (Lord Whitty) You appear to be more familiar with sheep transporters than I am. Clearly the inspectorate will have to have some regard to the cargo and the perishability of the cargo.

  704. What about that sort of vehicle or ones with refrigeration units, is the temptation going to be we will not stop that one because it might cause us a problem storing?
  (Lord Whitty) I do not think that is a temptation. The vehicles will be stopped, whether they will be impounded will depend upon whether they are operated illegally, we will obviously need to take into account the effect on the cargo and if they are live animals that is a particular problem.

  705. I just picked that out—I would have thought that people who knew a bit more about the industry than I do could pick out one or two others where there might be problems with impounding.
  (Lord Whitty) Nobody is saying there will not be problems. The threat of impounding, the possibility of impounding applies in all of these areas. The degree to which we would actually impound in particular circumstances does need consideration on a case-by-case basis, it may also need some discussion with the individual sectors of the road haulage industry as to how you deal with particular circumstances. Obviously we would need to engage in consultation on that once the primary legislation goes through.

  706. Is there a shortage of qualified drivers or should more be trained?
  (Lord Whitty) Probably more should be trained. We have taken steps in terms of the driver training scheme for 16 to 19 year olds, it has been extended to 20 to encourage more people in to get their HGV licence at 21. As with certain other slightly less attractive jobs, social and family purposes, there are more people who have a HGV licence than are practising HGV licence drivers. To say there is a shortage is not easy to establish. There is a shortage of people who, for various reasons, wish to take it up, the number of holders.

  707. If they were paid more they might attract many of the people who have a licence back.
  (Lord Whitty) Pay is part of it certainly.

  708. You can only hold a licence for a fairly short period without driving.
  (Lord Whitty) Can anybody help me out on how long that is?

  Chairman: Two years. We are happy to supply the answers as well as ask the questions.

  Dr Ladyman: I was approached by a constituent a year or so ago because the classes of the tests were being changed so that you could drive different classes of vehicle. He provided a HGV driving instruction service and his view was that it was no longer worth people training for a Class 1 licence because the additional cost involved in going for a Class 1 licence was so much greater than a Class 2 and people could earn a perfectly satisfactory living at Class 2. He found that his business was drying up with people willing to make that extra step into Class 1. Do you have any evidence of that as a result of the changes that have been made to the testing of HGV licences?

Chairman

  709. We are happy to have a supplementary note on some of these things. If the Department has information we are happy to have that supplementary. I want to ask you two or three small matters before I allow you to escape. Is it too easy to get into the industry?
  (Lord Whitty) It is an industry in which the threshold of entering is fairly low. By and large we think it has to be a competitive industry, we do not wish to put artificial barriers there.

  710. Where it is low you accept that?
  (Lord Whitty) I broadly accept it. The question of the financial status of operators needs some addressing, apart from that I accept that it is and probably will continue to be and should continue to be relatively easy to go into the industry, provided you are qualified.

  711. Have you discussed the whole business of the financial probity? We have heard quite horrifying stories of how people establish their financial probity. You are seriously considering whether the step should not be a higher step in relation to financial probity. Good. We can expect some answer to that at some point in the near future.
  (Lord Whitty) Certainly the traffic commissioners are looking at it and we shall listen to their advice.

  712. Are there too many vehicles in the industry? Are they competing in such a way that they are able to undercut one another because there are too many vehicles?
  (Lord Whitty) There are more vehicles in the industry than there are on the road in an active economic activity at any given time. We want to encourage the turnover of vehicles so that we get cleaner, better vehicles and more efficient vehicles.

  713. You have just told us it is easy to get in, there is not any particular way of pushing owners into getting new and better vehicles but you are still quite content there should be more vehicles that are economically capable of being viable, is that what you said?
  (Lord Whitty) I suppose I am saying if we decide in arithmetic terms there are too many vehicles, what do you do about it? We want newer, cleaner and more efficient vehicles.

  714. I know what you want. We have had a clear indication of your wishes. If it is an industry that is very easy to get into, where the steps concerned in order to prove your financial probity and general viability are not high and where you say that in the name of private enterprise they should be allowed to do whatever they like, are we to take your protestations about caring about climate change and other aspects of the environment terribly seriously?
  (Lord Whitty) Yes, I think so. I would hope so. When we say it is easy to enter the industry, it is easy to enter the industry provided your vehicles are safe. We are tidying up and trying to enforce better safety standards.

  715. How many people are you going to need to get that level of enforcement? What urgent talks did you have with the Home Office about the need for enforcement? We are told consistently enforcement, enforcement, tachographs, quality of drivers hours. We are given all this anecdotal evidence, East German drivers coming in, although we are unable to establish the size of it. What are the Department doing about enforcement? If you are saying to us we can deal with this because we know we have good enforcement, what can you do that demonstrates that?
  (Lord Whitty) We have enforcement into the entry of the industry through the Traffic Commission.

  716. That is very low, we have just agreed. You are looking at that. Let us not do that one again.
  (Lord Whitty) On that point, you asked me whether it was the near future, the consultation will be completed this summer.

  717. Not the near future.
  (Lord Whitty) Fairly near future. Reasonably near future. We have also agreed with the Treasury that the licence income can now be hypothecated back to the Vehicle Inspectorate and that will give them more resources. We improved technology of the Vehicle Inspectorate and we are improving the facilities of the Vehicle Inspectorate and we are taking steps to increase the quantity and quality of enforcement. I do believe that that does have a fairly strong deterrent value. I accept, however, as I said earlier, there is still a serious problem of illegal operators on our roads.

  718. Do you want to tell us what proportion of tax paid by road users was paid by the road haulage industry?
  (Lord Whitty) The proportion of total tax take?

  719. What proportion was paid by road hauliers?
  (Mr Todd) The most recent year for which we have figures is 1997/1998 and the total tax for VED and fuel duty was £23.8 billion.


 
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