Examination of Witnesses (Questions 720
- 740)
WEDNESDAY 29 MARCH 2000
LORD WHITTY,
MS ANGELA
MOSS, AND
MR IAIN
TODD
720. 23.8 billion. That is all road users. What
percentage of that was paid by the road haulage industry?
(Mr Todd) The road haulage industry above 3.5 tonnes
is 16.8 per cent—about 4 billion.
721. Can you also tell me how much is the Government
spend on all forms of transport, not just sustaining and improving
the road network?
(Lord Whitty) Yes. The figure is 8.6 billion over
the last full year. Of course that is transport expenditure, it
does not include the policing of the roads.
722. Can you tell us, after you have taken account
of all forms of taxation and all other on-costs, whether it is
cheaper or more expensive to operate a lorry in the United Kingdom
rather than other European countries?
(Lord Whitty) We touched on this earlier, the indications
that we have, we have done a lot of work on this and the industry
provided figures—and we are not completely in accord with
the industry on this—and it indicated taking all costs into
account we are very much on par with the Netherlands and Belgium
and we are slightly higher than France. I cannot give you other
EU countries, although we did briefly look at Germany, although
we did not reach a conclusion.
723. If your Road Haulage Forum is doing such
a good job, why do you think we have had to take evidence this
afternoon from a group calling themselves the Shadow Road Haulage
Forum?
(Lord Whitty) Far be it from me to suggest that there
might be a little element of political motivation here, we know
the origins of that body, that is not to say they cannot give
you useful advice, we are dealing with the authoritative trade
associations and trade unions with the road haulage industry in
the Road Haulage Forum. As I have said, we have not always agreed
on everything but that is a process which we are now engaged in.
We have reduced the area of disagreement and we have a number
of constructive approaches and various working parties, to which
Mr Todd has referred, which include demand enforcement and include
looking at the regulations more generally, including the recently
set up one on the Working Time Directive. All of that is a constructive
relationship rather than a lobbying relationship.
724. Are your Working Parties going on now?
(Lord Whitty) Yes.
725. Are you intending to call them altogether
before very long?
(Lord Whitty) The main Forum are meeting sometime
in April and the Working Parties go on between that.
726. Will that evidence be made public or is
it just to the Government?
(Lord Whitty) We will have to decide that between
ourselves and the industry, what evidence we agree on may be made
public.
Mr Bennett
727. You keep secret the stuff you disagree
on.
(Lord Whitty) If the industry disagree, I have no
doubt they will tell the public anyway.
Chairman
728. It is possible that your Working Parties
will come up with evidence which will be quite useful to this
Committee, particularly on enforcement or some of the other problems
we talked about.
(Lord Whitty) Would it be helpful to you if I committed
myself today to say that any such information which comes up in
the timescale of your investigation we will obviously provide
to your secretary?
Mr Gray
729. On this question about impounding vehicles,
there is a proposal for impounding powers in the Immigration and
Asylum Bill, are there going to be new powers brought into the
existing Transport Bill for other reasons?
(Lord Whitty) That was the implication of the Chancellor's
statement—the Chairman will have a go at me—that was
said around the Budget time.
Chairman: I have never had a go at you, even
when you were a commoner.
Mr Gray: The Bill is processed through this
House?
Chairman
730. Are you saying you would go for a general
empowerment in the Bill? It needs to be done by regulation, is
that what you are saying?
(Lord Whitty) Yes, it needs regulation.
731. This is not in the existing legislation
brought in either at Report stage or in another place, is that
what you are saying?
(Lord Whitty) Yes.
732. Which of those?
(Lord Whitty) I think it is probably a matter for
those who are dealing with the Bill.
733. No, no. You are in control of the legislation
in your Department. I ask you again.
(Lord Whitty) We will bring it in as soon as we can.
We are still in committee on that Bill, as you well know. It is
our intention to bring it in as early as possible, I cannot say
more than that.
734. You expect it to be done subsequently by
regulation. Either positive or negative, you have not come to
the point where you have taken a decision on that?
(Lord Whitty) It would be done by negative resolution.
735. We would welcome a small note from you
on that.
(Lord Whitty) As soon as we finalise the proposition
I will ensure that a letter goes to you at the same time.
Chairman: You so inspire my colleagues, I keep
thinking I am winding up.
Mr Forsythe: Very briefly, the decision taken
by the Republic of Ireland to clamp down on some ways of "flagging
out", did any discussions take place between the Republic
of Ireland Government and Her Majesty's Government before that
happened?
Chairman
736. Do you mean by de-flagging, which sounds
like a very Irish solution?
(Lord Whitty) Basically they are lorries which were
then registered in the Irish Republic but did all of their business
back in Northern Ireland. The Irish Authorities felt that was
not appropriate. They did have discussions with us and the Department
of Transport in Northern Ireland.
Miss McIntosh
737. The Department I am sure will be aware
of the huge concerns which are reflected in the evidence that
this Committee has heard on the £2,000 fine for vehicles
under the Asylum and Immigration Act, has the Minister or Government
considered taking any measures to allay the fears of what the
impact will be on each individual haulier, particularly those
who are working for a larger company, who will be put very much
at risk, and even more so for the owner-drivers?
(Lord Whitty) We have. This is more a matter for the
Home Office Minister than myself. It has an implication for this
industry and we had to strike a balance between what is a very
serious problem of smuggling illegal immigrants and the potential
difficulty for the industry or individual driver themselves. Considerable
inter-departmental discussions did go on about this being introduced
and the Act is obviously not designed to penalise hauliers who
unwittingly carry illegal entrants. On the other hand it is an
incentive to check, for both owners and drivers, and we are consulting
on that with the Home Office and we are consulting on the details
of the Code of Practice under which these powers will be exerted.
I do recognise the anxiety in the industry and amongst the trade
unions on this. I hope that Code of Practice will make it clear
what our intention is.
Chairman
738. I think, put simply, a driver who was handed
a vehicle that he cannot get into to check, for whatever reason,
and finds himself in jail he is not going to be a happy person.
(Lord Whitty) There are certain checks that a driver
can make and there are certain routines the employer can insure
or require him to make, that ought to be the effect of the Act.
Dr Ladyman
739. What, the status of the agreed Code of
Practice for drivers? If the driver followed that Code of Practice
he is not at risk?
(Lord Whitty) Courts would have to take that into
account.
Chairman
740. My Lord, I think you should. We are very
grateful to you for coming. I am sure your knowledge and your
previous training in your Labour party trade union post enabled
you to deal with this Committee with great charm and speed, and
all of those matters that make a successful Minister. We shall
call you back.
(Lord Whitty) Thank you very much. We will provide
that additional information as rapidly as possible.
Chairman: It was very nice to get the chance
to question you, yet again.
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