Examination of witnesses (Questions 480
- 499)
WEDNESDAY 12 JANUARY 2000
MR RICHARD
WAKEFORD, MR
EWEN CAMERON
and MS PAM
WARHURST
Mr O'Brien
480. Obviously, we accept that it slipped under
the net. I would suggest to you that these are issues, when the
government are emphasising such importance on transport, that
the agency ought to take seriously. When we ask for evidence,
it ought to be part of that evidence so that we can give it further
consideration when you appear before us. On the issue of post
offices, you were suggesting that there should be further allocation
of resources for better rural needs. Are you saying that you want
a larger slice of the cake, taken from the urban areas or from
the rural areas? Is that the philosophy behind your thinking?
(Mr Wakeford) The post office is a concern which operates,
I suppose, in a semi-commercial climate. That is probably the
best way of putting it. What it needs to do is to look at the
services it can provide and to those who will actually pay it
to provide those services. We believe that, especially in rural
areas looking at the potential of ICT for delivering modernised
government services, there is a real opportunity for the post
office to capitalise on its national spread. It is unique in its
national spread, but to deliver—
481. The National Association of Sub-Post Masters
are asking the government to delay the implementation of the programme
to allow the sub-post offices to come up with the IT equipment
that you are referring to so that they can introduce banking schemes
and meet the services. Are you supporting the sub-post masters'
organisation on that point? Have you joined with them in asking
for that?
(Mr Wakeford) We have had discussions with that organisation
and we are talking with the government but I am not saying that
we are necessarily supporting precisely what they are saying.
482. What you are saying is that you are not
too concerned over the fact that the scheme comes in, without
giving the sub-post offices in the rural areas the opportunity
to modernise. That would not concern the agency.
(Mr Wakeford) What we need to do is to look at ways
of sustaining the network of rural sub-post offices where they
are needed. I do not think that necessarily means one has to reverse
government decisions properly taken. If that decision is implemented
and it has the impact which some people say it will and there
is a social objective of maintaining that network of sub-post
offices, there will be other business opportunities that they
can meet and there will be an income stream attached to that.
It comes to the whole broad issue that we have been mentioning,
which is the whole question of entitlement. What could rural people
and rural services expect to enjoy? In some areas, they cannot
expect to enjoy the same level of services as those who perhaps
live in Islington and have a post office every 500 yards down
the road or whatever. In order to maintain the network, it may
well be that there is a need for those who are benefiting from
that network to pay for it.
Mr Gray
483. You mentioned you had some role in sponsoring
VRSA. That is exactly the opposite of what they are saying. I
have their submission here. They say that the government's proposals
regarding ACT are entirely wrong and must be put right. Are you
disagreeing with VRSA now?
(Mr Wakeford) I want us not to get dragged into this
single issue because we want the Rural White Paper, which is what
this inquiry is about, to be a kind of long term vision of what
is needed. What is definitely needed is a network of rural sub-post
offices because of their unique quality and their potential to
deliver a public service. Part of the government's decisions on
benefit payment also relates to a change in the role of the post
offices, with relationships with banks, with—
484. This is waffle. VRSA say that ACT will
close down the network and they are opposed to it. You say you
sponsor VRSA. Do you or do you not disagree with VRSA?
(Mr Cameron) If the government have taken the decision
to introduce ACT, what we have to try to do is to find new roles
and new ways forward for rural post offices. I believe there are
roles that they can perform—
485. Waffle.
(Mr Cameron) I do not think it is waffle at all.
Miss McIntosh
486. You emphasise very much in your evidence
that the market town is going to be the key to economic development
in the rural network. If you take the Vale of York as an example,
I have four market towns. It is James Herriot country. It is all
the plains of Yorkshire and many hills besides. 30 per cent of
the constituency is the outskirts of York. It seems to run contrary,
what you are proposing, to what the NFU say, because the NFU would
like to see the market towns serving the hinterland which, again
in the Vale of York, is hundreds of hamlets and a number of villages.
Do you see a contradiction in those policies and running into
a clash with the NFU?
(Ms Warhurst) I do not think there is a contradiction
there. We took a view, as we have done in most of our thinking,
which is perhaps we need to change the way we have traditionally
looked at solutions. I would like to come back to transport in
a minute, but maybe I will not get the chance to do that. In terms
of market towns, we need to say these have been in decline and
that decline, it is a fact, has influenced the quality of life
of the communities that surround them, the economic performance
of those businesses that are within them and the agricultural
sector that has been so dependent on them as centres of retail
and so on. We have recognised that as a fact. We have said it
is a bridge too far. We need to stop now. We need to identify
that and quite clearly bring together with a single focus those
areas of service delivery and those areas of policy that can make
sure that they are revitalised and regenerated. We need to do
that in partnership and we have an opportunity historically to
do that now with Regional Development Agencies. There seems to
me to be a great opportunity, not only to revitalise market towns,
but through revitalising them to have such a significant impact
on a number of other sectors that are absolutely vital to a thriving
rural area of the country. That will not only include housing,
which will have an impact in terms of the increased need for housing
stock; it would also look at transport because the needs for transport
in rural areas go way beyond the park and ride schemes. It is
about bringing effective partnerships together; it is about recognising
what people actually need to interconnect with other significant
areas; it is about the platform for farmers' markets, local production
and local added on value and so on. We would be at one with the
NFU in terms of saying market towns are extremely significant.
They are significant enough that we should focus several areas
of policy on them and we should make sure that through a number
of sectors, including the governance sector, they are identified
as the platform to revitalising rural Britain.
487. Bearing in mind that I think we would all
agree we are in the midst of the worst farming crisis for many
years, what specific proposals would you like to see, bearing
in mind that farmers do not have a great deal of money to go and
spend in market towns, that would actually help both the villages,
the hamlets, as well as the market towns?
(Ms Warhurst) It seems to me that there is a huge
opportunity. We have Regional Development Agencies looking at
added value, a unique selling point, branding local produce and
so on. They have recognised that that will play a significant
part in regenerating some of their areas. If we could use that
opportunity, if we could look at local production being sold locally
and obviously the positive effect that would have in terms of
congestion in other areas, we would look at expansion of farmers'
markets which have had a very significant impact in the States,
moving from 100 20 years ago to 2,400 now, £700 million of
dollar business. If we looked at what that would mean for employment
prospects, if we looked at taking the opportunities of the Small
Business Service and seeing what that means to micro businesses
in rural areas into farming communities, there are several areas
of opportunity that we really need to work up and make sure that
we can monitor and we can deliver against standards.
(Mr Cameron) The answer to your question is that every
market town is different.
Chairman
488. We understand that but what is the Commission
doing to make one of these farmers' markets work that is not working
at the moment?
(Mr Cameron) We have grant aided the Association of
Farmers' Markets which is designed to set out guidelines and best
knowhow in order to make those farmers' markets work. We are very
keen on farmers' markets and we continue our support through and
through. On the market town question, if a consultancy team can
go in there, and each market town will have its own solutions
which will include the hinterland, the locals should be able to
speak for themselves on each occasion in each place in a different
way. Hopefully, then we can get all government agencies, national,
regional, local, local authorities, to focus in on what they can
do to revitalise those market towns, including English Heritage,
including MAFF, including the Special Stewardship schemes perhaps,
including the RDAs and maybe even transport funds as well.
489. This is getting very general. Can we have
something more specific?
(Ms Warhurst) Can I be specific? In my own area, I
am fortunate enough to sit on Yorkshire Forward, the Regional
Development Agency for Yorkshire and the Humber. We have a partnership
approach to the regeneration of market towns. We at the Countryside
Agency took, through our board, a support package for moving forward
in partnership with Yorkshire Forward, who are very keen to identify
eight market towns that they can specifically over a period of
time pilot in terms of this concept of bringing together commercial,
social and a number of other agencies that can really make an
improvement to people. That is a specific. I come from an area
in Calderdale that is basically a string of market towns that
has not had access to funding because it has fallen through the
various criteria nets. It would be absolutely vital to the quality
of life of the people living there that these specific schemes
that we are targeting in real life work. We do believe that we
will bring together in the coming years some real quality pilot
partnerships that we can then roll out to the rest of the country.
Miss McIntosh
490. Are you concerned about the lack of affordable
housing schemes in rural areas?
(Mr Cameron) Yes, very much so. It is very worrying
and we need to increase that budget and we need to look at the
solutions to that problem, yes.
Mr Stevenson
491. You have talked about modulation in terms
of agricultural expenditure. What other short term changes to
agricultural policy do you see possible?
(Mr Cameron) We have touched on this area to some
extent throughout our evidence. I think it is a question of agriculture
looking to see what it can deliver in terms of marketable commodities.
In the old days, it was food. More recently, it has been environmental
services. I think agriculture can also deliver leisure services.
It is already to some extent delivering tourism, bed and breakfast
and the like. It can deliver good local products to farmers' markets.
It can shorten the supply line. It can help itself in many ways
by going more into the processing and marketing of its own commodities.
492. I was thinking more in terms of the agricultural
policy itself. Let me give you an example. What is your view,
for example, about the millions of pounds that are spent on set
aside, which effectively pays farmers not to produce anything?
Do you not think there is a case there for the Countryside Agency,
in terms of the relationship between agricultural policy and rural
development, to consider that issue? There are others I could
mention but time will not allow me.
(Mr Cameron) We certainly do not support the concept
of set aside, although it can have some environmental benefits
if well used. We would support the concept of putting some form
of cross-compliance into such schemes, whereby farmers have to
actually deliver a basic standard of responsibilities if they
are going to receive state money for set aside. In essence, we
would encourage the movement of agriculture towards a more competitive
agricultural system, whereby set aside is not required at all
and there are other goods being delivered, as I have mentioned,
by agriculture, paid for by the state because the state is the
only possible buyer.
493. Could I move on to the longer term? I think
Mr Wakeford said that the Rural White Paper should have a vision
for the longer term. Again, concentrating on agriculture, given
the apparent failure of the discussions in Europe on the reform
to the CAP, what is your vision in terms of agriculture and its
relationship to rural development in the longer term?
(Mr Cameron) Our vision would be that agriculture
should produce the goods that it can market. It should not be
dependent upon subsidies which have become a drug distorting the
agricultural market place. It has distorted the agricultural market
place not only from the point of view of farmers. Really, it has
not been of benefit in the long term to farmers; it has not been
of benefit to the environment of this countryside. I think agriculture
should examine what it can deliver to society and to its customers.
Hence our land management initiatives are looking at "son
of stewardship", a new method of delivering all sorts of
goods to the local community. Agriculture should deliver its goods
to its consumers through farmers' markets—in other words,
shortening the supply line wherever possible—actually communicating
with its customers, its customers feeding back information to
farmers. It will need some support but I hope that support will
be delivered in terms of benefits and goods that society is buying
from the farmers as a contract, not as a subsidy.
494. Finally, would you therefore either recognise,
accept or reject the concept that said that agricultural support
in future should be part of rural development plans and policies?
(Mr Cameron) I think you want to look at a graph.
At the moment, production support is right up here; environment
and rural development are right down here. You need to split it
and I would say you probably need one third, one third, one third.
Christine Butler
495. In your evidence you refer to the development
of information and communication technology as a benefit to rural
communities. What is your reaction then to the recent study for
the OECD by Professor John Adams which concluded that enabling
more people to work in the countryside would lead to greater distances
to travel for services and resulting in people being more isolated?
You are aware of those comments, are you?
(Mr Cameron) I was not, no. ICT can provide jobs;
it can help rural communities communicate. Richard was talking
about the village shop being on line and assisting people. Instead
of going to the job centre or the health centre, they would actually
communicate via ICT to those outlets and to lots of other outlets.
In the end, of course, it does not do away with the need for transport.
People have still got to get together; goods have still to be
delivered. It is not the full solution to the delivery of rural
services. We are hoping to carry out some experiments with one
of the RDAs with a view to putting in ICT within a range of parishes
and trying to actually see what effect this has on the community
and on the demands and needs of that community.
496. You are aware that beyond three kilometres
from a telephone exchange they are noting that the high quality,
high speed telephone links to transfer data cannot be installed?
(Mr Wakeford) That is the position with the technology
that is available from British Telecom at the moment through their
home highway scheme, but that is not the limit to where technology
is going. Can I give you another example, where we do not know
yet what the impact is going to be? Nearly all the supermarket
chains are talking about home delivery. Certainly in my household
we are looking forward to having home delivery. When we have home
delivery on those goods, will we get everything from a van and
never go to a supermarket at all or will we find ourselves going
to our local market town or village to do the top up shopping
that at the moment we do in the supermarket aisles? The jury is
out and we do not know. It could be that ICT will open up new
vitality for market towns, or it could make things more difficult.
We do not know yet.
Dr Ladyman
497. The point about ISDN lines has just been
made but notwithstanding the limitations of the technology rural
villages are always going to be the last to be cabled and the
last to be provided with these facilities. How are you going to
speed that process up?
(Mr Wakeford) Rural villages can benefit from satellite
technology, the same as urban areas. Ultimately, as we move to
satellite technology, we will get to the point where it does not
actually matter how far away you are.
Chairman
498. You have solved that problem. Should you
be doing rural proofing or should somebody else be doing it?
(Mr Cameron) We believe that we are very capable of
doing it. We would like to carry out more research; we would like
to have indicators. I would like to have inward secondments from
all the different departments so that we ensure that, when they
are doing their basic thinking, rural features appear.
499. We can put you down for rural proofing?
(Mr Wakeford) We are doing it already, Chairman.
(Mr Cameron) To some extent.
(Mr Wakeford) We need more backing from the government
to be able to do it effectively across all the areas. At the moment,
it depends on particular areas, but we want to be able to do the
job properly.
Chairman: On that note, can I thank you very
much for your evidence? Thank you.
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