Examination of witnesses (Questions 364
- 379)
WEDNESDAY 15 DECEMBER 1999
MR MICHAEL
CLAYTON, MR
GAVIN PRITCHARD
GORDON and ANNIE
DODD
Chairman: I will just give you time to pour
out some water, before we begin.
Mr Gray: Chairman, while they are pouring the
water, perhaps can I make, on a point of order, a declaration
of interest. I am Chairman of something called the Horse and Pony
Taxation Committee, which exists to lobby the Government on horse
and pony taxation issues, and as Chairman of that organisation
I am an unpaid consultant to the body in front of us today, the
British Horse Industry Confederation.
Chairman
364. Thank you for that information. Can I welcome
you to the third session this morning. Could I ask you to introduce
yourselves, for the record, please?
(Mr Clayton) Thank you, Chairman. My name is Michael
Clayton. I am the Chairman of the British Horse Industry Confederation
and a Director of the British Equestrian Federation. I am also
Chairman of the British Horse Society.
(Mr Pritchard Gordon) Gavin Pritchard Gordon. I am
the Executive Director of the Thoroughbred Breeders' Association.
(Ms Dodd) And I am Annie Dodd, and I am here representing
the British Horseracing Board, which is the governing authority
of horse-racing in this country.
365. Thank you very much. Do you want to say
anything by way of introduction, or are you happy for us to go
to questions?
(Mr Clayton) I will just say, very quickly, that we
very much welcome the opportunity to talk to this Committee, because
we really need your help, perhaps in a different way from many
of the bodies which have appeared before you, because up to now
the horse world has been a very fragmented area, and has been
regarded as a very fragmented area; the formation of our Confederation
has enabled us, we hope, to speak to Government with one voice.
We believe very much that the scale of the horse industry in rural
Britain contributes about £2.5 billion to the rural economy,
making it the second largest economic activity to conventional
farming, which is about £7.3 billion, and, as you know, that
is about one point per cent of GNP. We believe that we really
do need very much better representation in Government, whatever
Government is in power, than we have ever had; we would very much
like this Committee to include in your recommendations that the
horse industry has a Minister designated to its interests, and
at least part of a Ministry. So that is really the thrust of our
appeal to you, as a Committee, and we hope very much we can expand
on this, as you like, Sir.
Mrs Ellman
366. How much of a problem for you are speeding
motorists?
(Mr Clayton) Very much a problem, because, of course,
we reckon there are about 3,000 accidents a year involving horses,
that is about eight a day, and we very much line up with other
bodies who request a very significant reduction in traffic speed
levels on country lanes; we think that a reduction to about 40
miles an hour in country lanes would be a good idea, and 20 miles
an hour in some villages. And we side very much with other bodies
who wish to see certain country lanes designated particularly
as areas where lower speeds are applicable.
Mrs Dunwoody
367. Is it really eight a day?
(Mr Clayton) Absolutely.
368. Across the whole of the United Kingdom?
(Mr Clayton) Across the whole of the United Kingdom.
369. Where does that show up?
(Mr Clayton) The stats kept by the police; we have
asked for horse accidents to be especially recorded, and we have
won that battle, but, unfortunately, those stats do not come through
until the middle of the next year. But the British Horse Society,
which is a nationwide body, has kept its own statistics, and these
do appear to be supported by our links with other safety bodies
as well. I can assure you, as somebody who rides on the roads
regularly, it is a nightmare.
Mrs Ellman
370. Is reducing speeds the only way to tackle
this?
(Mr Clayton) It is the simplest way in which we think
Government could help; it would make a dramatic difference. I
think it would also help the countryside in general, and the horse
is very much part of the countryside.
371. What about other bridleways for horses?
(Mr Clayton) Of course, we are very keen indeed to
see an improvement in off-road access for horses. I do not think
it is generally understood that horses actually have access to
only 20 per cent of designated footpaths in this country; there
are about 140,000 miles of designated footpaths, and we only do
have access actually to 20 per cent. And the British Horse Society
has a full-time department which is engaged in the laborious and
cumbersome task of trying to get paths redefined as bridleways
which always were bridleways, and that is, in itself, under the
present system, a very considerable task, as you know, going through
the legal routes, and all the rest of it. We would like local
authorities to designate and create bridleways more than they
do at the moment; and, in case anybody should ask it, we do not
see any clash at all with other users. It has been raised occasionally
at local level that people on foot do not like walking along paths
which horses are using, but since time immemorial horses and people
on foot have used country paths, and surely nobody wants to see
them—
Mr Olner
372. No, they have not; no, they have not.
(Mr Clayton) Nobody wants to see them tarmacked, do
they; and we have made great efforts to have friendly and constructive
relationships with rambler groups, and people like that, and we
have noticed, at local level, that conflicts do not arise, and,
as I say, we have access to only 20 per cent anyway.
Christine Butler
373. You want greater access; so that is understood?
(Mr Clayton) Yes.
374. Do you think it would be a better idea,
instead of using such great resources of your Society, or association,
in trying to establish bridleway rights and already-existing rights
of way, that it co-operated with local authorities in establishing
a better network for bridleways by creating new bridleways, so
that you have got a linked-up network, rather than spending so
much time, and such a headache, in trying to get an established
right of way converted to, as you say, what you believe to be
an old bridleway?
(Mr Clayton) That is a very helpful question, if I
may say so. The other fact that we are very concerned about is
that only a very small proportion of existing bridleways actually
continue for more than two miles; and we have used things like
Lottery bids to play our part in creating things like the Pennine
Way, which are linked-up paths. Too many bridleways have been
truncated by new motorways and new roads and just completely scythed
across, so they actually become useless anyway; but they are an
enormously important part of a living countryside, not just for
horse-riders, and so we would very much like to see linked-up
bridleways. I have to say that the response of the BHS to the
DETR consultative document on bridleways has not been entirely
favourable, because my members are somewhat concerned about the
proposal for a sort of cut-off on redesignation for paths to bridleways,
and we fear we would lose a great many there. But I think the
principle, in general, is that we would certainly like to see
far more linked-up bridleways, this is a rural amenity for a part
of the rural activity which, as I say, makes an economic input;
and a great many people ride, two million, or so, ride, and that
is a great many people, and there is growth, natural growth, of
about 2 to 3 per cent. Various areas of the horse world grow at
different stages, according to their popularity at the time; but
if you go along in your train and you look out of it, on your
way out of a town, you will see horses and ponies in the fields.
Horsemanship has been an amazingly popular and expanding thing;
it is not elitist.
375. Can I come in there, because I think we
are straying from both question and answer. Is there any prospect
of the BHS redirecting, or refocusing, its energies, in co-operating
with whoever, to get a joined-up network and not to keep on pursuing
what they feel might be a `lost right' along a footpath? I just
wondered if there was a yes or no to that, because I began by
asking that question, in the first place?
(Mr Clayton) I think, with a congenial form of co-operation
on this issue, certainly, the Society itself would be prepared
to go down that road; but, unfortunately, we have a long history
of trying to re-open networks, or re-open existing bridleways,
as you say, or re-open paths which were not designated properly
on definitive maps, and I think that the issue is still alive
as to whether or not we are happy with a cut-off, because we feel
we are going to lose so much. But I, myself, and other members
of the Board of Trustees of the BHS, are pretty sympathetic towards
the fact that we will have to face a time when we will have to
go for linked-up—
376. How would a walker and a cyclist manage
to go along a country track, which has a high water level, in
February, where many horses had been riding before?
(Mr Clayton) I think, with great respect, that is
a very general question. It depends on the paths, it depends on
the width of the paths, they are not all general; but, I think,
to be fair, I use both myself, and the general impression is,
surely we do not want a countryside where you cannot walk along
paths without using sensible footgear, and that sort of thing,
and I do not think it is a very serious problem.
377. Or sensible wheels on a bicycle?
(Mr Clayton) Yes, and I think the behaviour of horse-riders
is very important, too. And the Society and the managed part of
the horse world seeks very much to ensure that we are user-friendly
and that we do not use these things inconsiderately.
378. What do you suggest might be done to overcome
the problem of conflict of interest here?
(Mr Clayton) I think the economic input of trying
to, as it were, upgrade paths so that they could be used by everybody
is beyond the resources of Government, nor would anybody wish
to do it, or local government. I think we simply influence horse-riders
to use them as considerately as possible; we do not actually gallop
madly along footpaths all the time, at all, you can go at varying
speeds.
Mr Olner: Not all the time.
Christine Butler
379. How could you avoid the problem of poaching,
and I do not mean killing pheasants, I mean poaching turf; now
that has a severe impact, has it not, both on the environment
and, by that, possibly biodiversity, because flora would find
it very difficult to re-establish on severely-poached territory,
it would be just an invasion of weeds all over again? And there
are real problems there for biodiversity, for the environment
and for other users, because it is very difficult, picking your
way where horses have been in muddy weather?
(Mr Clayton) I think that, the footpaths which are
used as bridleways as well, and vice versa, there is not a serious
problem in this respect, in general terms, and we are not seeking
a 100 per cent usage of all footpaths; 80 per cent of existing
footpaths are banned to riders anyway, so it is not exactly an
avalanche of hooves along Britain's footpaths which we are seeking.
But I think a system of linked-up bridleways which were suitable
for horses and other users is possible, and I certainly ride myself,
and I know everybody else who rides a horse does, along many bridleways,
frequently used, where they are certainly not beaten tracks. Okay,
we have got two million horses, but the intensity and degree of
horse usage of bridleways varies enormously from area to area,
and particularly in the truly rural areas, in the countryside,
it really is not a major problem, I can assure you.
Mrs Gorman: I am from Essex and, despite my
horsy friend here, who thinks that Essex is all urban,—
Mr Gray: No, I do not.
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