Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40
- 59)
WEDNESDAY 24 NOVEMBER 1999
MR DAVID
ROWLANDS, MR
ROY GRIFFINS
AND MR
DAVID COOKE
40. Mr Rowlands, forgive me, but you are here
because you took it away before because the Committee actually
produced a report on millennium compliance and your own words
to us were that you were quite happy across the transport system
that because of all these myriad checks the transport system was—I
repeat—blue, in other words in a state which your Department
found perfectly acceptable. We are just asking you about one little
bit of it and we are saying that if there is a problem how is
it that you have not come prepared to say to us "yes, overall
we are quite happy about it, however there are difficulties here,
there and everywhere"?
(Mr Rowlands) My opening statement was in relation
to the UK national infrastructure which is the only infrastructure
which has been classified blue.
41. These people are flying into the UK.
(Mr Rowlands) I am afraid we cannot validate in the
kind of detail I was describing the processes that have gone on
overseas, whether they are in transport or in other sectors.
42. Mr Rowlands, I am not asking you to give
us a detailed account of what is going on in the air control system
of Ghana but I am saying to you that the Committee is asking you
not for the first time, the Committee produced a detailed report.
Mr Griffins, do you have some point you want to make on this?
(Mr Griffins) Yes, Chairman, if I could try to assist
the Committee a little.
43. I am sure you will reassure us.
(Mr Griffins) I can say that so far in response to
the ICAO—International Civil Aviation Organisation—request
for information as to Y2K compliance, 166 of 185 member nations
have replied with information validated by IATA. I can also say
that internationally ICAO, an inter-governmental organisation,
has checked air traffic control provision throughout the world
and has found 99 per cent plus to be compliant.
Mr Stevenson
44. I want to ask a direct question, if I may.
I am going to preface my question very briefly with an observation.
I think that Mr Rowlands knows the areas that are of concern,
I think that is a reasonable observation, and Mr Rowlands is not
willing to divulge that information, albeit it may be a very small
minority, because of his view that there should be at least a
European collective response. Personally I do not believe that
to be an acceptable position given our previous report and given
the timescale that we have now in the public interest. I am now
coming to my direct question. Mr Rowlands, do you accept my observations
either in whole or in part? The second part of my question is
are you willing to divulge that information to this Committee
now?
(Mr Rowlands) As I said, I did not actually bring
the list with me. Would it be helpful if we wrote to the Committee
in confidence with the position as it stands today because, as
Mr Griffins said, they have until 30 November to actually come
back to us and we have not reached a point where this process
has been completed.
Chairman
45. Yes, I think that would be very helpful
but I have to say to you, Mr Rowlands, that your Department can
be a little leisurely on timescales. I hope that if you say you
are going to write to us we can expect to get that list within
the next—
(Mr Rowlands) I will undertake to get that to you
quickly.
Mr Stevenson
46. This bothers me, and I am sure Mr Rowlands
will understand that, but what we are after here, all of us, is
in the public interest.
(Mr Rowlands) Indeed.
Mr Stevenson: I am not questioning that at all.
What I think is likely to happen as a result of getting this co-ordinated
approach is that the end of November will come, you will be seeking
to assess the information you have, then there will be further
consultation and time will go on and the public interest, therefore,
will become narrower and narrower and diminished and diminished.
The second problem I have with this confidential information that
comes is the minute that confidential information is within the
remit of this Committee we shall have a responsibility because
if, heaven forbid, anything did go wrong and it was known in the
public that we, this Committee, had this information confidentially
I do not know what position we would be in. I am not quite sure
whether this is acceptable either given our previous report.
Chairman: We have all sorts of other questions
to ask. Mr O'Brien has the next one.
Mr O'Brien
47. I just want to make the point that earlier
you referred to the Financial Services Authority, the FSA—
(Mr Rowlands) I do not think I did.
48. I thought that you were referring to the
fact that they were satisfied with the progress. You have not
referred to that at all?
(Mr Rowlands) No.
49. I see. You referred to the Y2K bug. Are
you satisfied from that language that in relation to the Y2K bug
as far as we are concerned here in the UK, there are no reserve
matters that have not been considered?
(Mr Rowlands) I think, as I said before, the overall
position in the United Kingdom is reflected in what Action 2000
announced yesterday which was that the UK national infrastructure,
not just transport but all of the other sectors as well, has now
been assessed as blue in terms of the millennium compliance position
which is no material risk of significant disruption. That is not
just transport, that is the other key sectors as well.
50. Right across the board?
(Mr Rowlands) Yes.
Chairman
51. I just want to ask you two little things
because I want to come back to this business about aviation because
it is concerning. Were there any people who replied to ICAO or
to the European organisations that you have been talking about
who gave any cause for concern?
(Mr Griffins) Initially that was probably the case
but that is not the case now. There are countries out there and
in the context of permits for flying to this country there are
carriers out there from whom we have not got sufficient information
as yet.
52. Are you expecting to have that by the end
of the week?
(Mr Griffins) We want to give the opportunity to those
carriers and countries to provide us with it because that is what
we have said we would do and we would prefer to do that before
besmirching a carrier.
53. Mr Griffins, you are telling me you put
a deadline on for the end of the week, are you not?
(Mr Griffins) Yes.
54. That is not really what I am asking you
because I can work that out myself. What I am saying to you is,
were there any countries which replied which were sufficiently
worrying from your point of view for you to, I do not know, list
that information separately or seek extra information? Of the
people who have not replied, are they going to be likely to reply
by the end of the week in a form you can make generally public?
What will be the timetable after you get that information? When
are you going to talk to the Eurocontrol people, or whoever it
is, this amorphous European body? And why does all this machinery
take so long when we are coming so close to the actual date? Do
you want to take any one of those?
(Mr Griffins) Could I go back to at least trying to
defend my Department a little? I admit we were late but we did
make a statement on 21 October which we sent over to the Committee
and which we made public at the National Infrastructure Forum.
We followed that with a second statement which the parliamentary
under-secretary of state, Keith Hill, put into a parliamentary
answer on 18 November both pertaining to domestic and international
aviation. What we are talking about now with the Department, having
reserved the right to suspend permits over the critical millennium
period, is services to and from the UK by foreign carriers. As
to services by UK carriers out of UK, we are confident that such
carriers have access to a sufficient amount of information to
know whether or not to mount those services. So we are talking
about this body of carriers, only foreign carriers serving the
UK, and we have reserved the right for all carriers requesting
permits that we may suspend their permits over the critical millennium
period if we are unsure of their Y2K compliance insofar as it
affects their safety. I am saying, we have a very small number
of carriers—
55. What is a small number?
(Mr Griffins) I think single figures.—for whom
we have not had the reassuring information as yet. We do not even
know whether these residual carriers will be mounting services
over the period.
Mr Olner
56. You said "you may suspend", surely
we have to be stronger than that? If they have not provided the
information and we do not know, there should be absolutely no
question whatever. "May" does not come into it.
(Mr Griffins) I am sorry, I was referring to the moment
at which we warned the carriers applying for permits, and at that
point we said, "We reserve the right to suspend your permit
if we are not satisfied that you are Y2K compliant." At that
moment all we were doing was reserving the right. Now we are saying
that if we are dissatisfied and they intend to fly, we will suspend
their permit; will.
Chairman
57. Are any of those airlines in Europe?
(Mr Griffins) Off the top of my head, I cannot think
of any, but I would rather repeat the offer made by my boss to
write to the Committee with these airlines, though my preference
is at least to give them the chance.
Mr Olner
58. You are protecting them.
(Mr Griffins) Not in the slightest.
Mr Olner: And keeping the public ignorant.
Miss McIntosh: Chairman, there is one point
which has been overlooked here. Airline schedules are printed
six months in advance. If you are saying that they have not applied
for a permit, I find that quite extraordinary. If you are saying
that they have applied for a permit but you are waiting to hear
their state of preparedness, inevitably there will be a commercial
consequence for these airlines if you withdraw the permit because
they might have a full flight, so there are commercial consequences.
We are particularly concerned here about security and Millennium
2 compliance. What you are saying to the Committee today, particularly
Mr Griffins, is that there are probably only between five and
ten, and I find it quite incredible that a man of your intelligence
cannot carry those names around in his head, bearing in mind this
is the second occasion you have been asked to come before the
Committee today and provide them. One way forward, Madam Chairman,
is to adjourn for half an hour, or continue on a different subject
such as Eurostar or Channel Tunnel, to enable one of the three
to go and phone the Department and have a list put before us.
Chairman
59. What you are really saying is you do not
want to give us the information until the end of the month?
(Mr Griffins) Because we have set that as a deadline
for these carriers to give us the assurances. If we then publish
their names ahead of the deadline which we have set for them,
we would have been acting in bad faith.
Mr Donohoe: So make it 1 December and say there
is a certainty that if they have not replied, they will have their
names printed.
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