Examination of witnesses (Questions 160
- 168)
TUESDAY 30 NOVEMBER 1999
DR MARION
CARTER, MR
DIRK HAZELL
and MR GRAHAM
WATSON
160. Do you believe that within the boards of
companies there is a proper recognition made of the role of the
Agency?
(Mr Watson) Absolutely, yes. I would say that every
member company of the ESA is soundly behind the principles of
the Agency. When you look at some of the evidence put forward
by some of the waste operators, they are saying that in terms
of levelling the playing field, where we know about how competitive
we are in the marketplace, if everybody is regulated to the same
standard, then we know where we are and we can reflect our own
charges on that basis.
Mr Donohoe: Do you believe, just as with the
argument we are having in the inquiry over health and safety,
that directors should be held personally responsible for misdemeanours
and in fact should be in a position where they could go to jail
if something untoward happens within their company?
Mrs Dunwoody
161. Bearing in mind that you are working for
a trade association, you might like to think seriously before
you answer that question.
(Dr Carter) We already are. Under the legislation,
the directors of companies can be personally prosecuted.
Mr Donohoe
162. Yes, they can be prosecuted, but they cannot
be sent to jail.
(Dr Carter) I believe they can and I believe that
not members of ESA, I would stress, but I believe I heard Mr Gallagher
say on one occasion that he had twelve people in jail for offences
on waste, but I stress that they were not ESA members.
(Mr Hazell) I think it is important in terms of tone
to make the point that the industry we represent strives very
hard to be a responsible industry and it is certainly not a characteristic
of our Board of Directors, for example, to be operating at the
very margin of what the law allows. We are trying to provide a
cost effective but technically sound and safe service for the
country.
163. But in order to do that against the cowboys
within the industry, and there are many, you face a situation
where competition takes work from your member companies, do you
not?
(Mr Hazell) As Dr Carter has said, the people that
are in prison were not members of ESA. There is always the difficulty
of getting the balance right with these things. One of the consequences
of introducing incentives to divert from landfill is that there
is now flytipping which has to be addressed and none of these
issues is particularly straightforward. One has to be very careful
not to undermine the overall impression of this industry.
164. If one of your member companies was charged
with something quite serious would you expel them from your organisation?
(Dr Carter) We have a code of conduct in the Environmental
Services Association which is enforced. There is a disciplinary
code.
165. How many companies have you thrown out
of your organisation?
(Mr Hazell) It has not been necessary to throw members
out. Our members are operating reputable businesses. Waste in
itself is never going to be a glamorous product, but our members
are operating a cost effective and safe service to help to improve
the country's environment. It is very important from everybody's
point of view that the British public have confidence in the British
waste management industry and one of our major concerns with the
hall of shame is that it is contributing to a situation where
public confidence is not as high as it might be. It is very important
that public confidence in our industry is strengthened because
in the years to come people are going to be asked to pay more
for their waste management services if the objectives of the Landfill
Directives are to be achieved.
166. You asked for a clear statement between
the Government's policy-making function and the Agency's implementation
role. What should such a statement say?
(Mr Hazell) I think one of the clear statements that
I would wish to see is a basic statement of confidence in the
British waste management industry and its essential role as a
partner in addressing the environmental challenges this country
faces. This is an industry that does have export potential to
develop in years ahead. It is one of the world leaders. It actually
operates to very high standards indeed.
Chairman
167. What you are really telling us is that
we do not need the Environment Agency, do we, we could just leave
it to your industry which is so perfect that we do not need a
regulator?
(Mr Hazell) We have not said that.
168. That is the impression you have made to
me this morning.
(Dr Carter) I think we should stress that the trade
association was a great supporter of the Environment Agency at
its instigation. Integrated pollution control was pioneered in
this country and the waste management industry was party to that
in the days of the Control of Pollution Act. The trade association
has always supported strong regulation.
Chairman: Thank you very much for your evidence.
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