Examination of witnesses (Questions 320
- 339)
TUESDAY 7 DECEMBER 1999
MS JANET
ASHERSON, MR
DOUG RODGER,
MR DAI
HAYWARD and PROFESSOR
PHIL ROBERTS
Mr Donohoe
320. More concentrated?
(Ms Asherson) A more cohesive view of business and
the fewer regional diversities in Scotland.
321. Does the Agency have sufficient competent
staff in all its functions?
(Professor Roberts) Generally it has a wide range
of competencies as you would find in any large organisation. Our
experience of dealing with them, particularly in the IPC area
where my knowledge is, is that they have a very good technically
competent staff. For our sector of the industry dealt with under
IPC and IPPC, it is very important as they are dealing with extremely
complex processes and need to understand them both in terms of
organising them and then inspecting them.
322. Are there enough staff?
(Professor Roberts) Yes. I have not seen any evidence
of shortage of staff in my dealings with them or the dealings
of my colleagues with them in terms that they are able to meet
demands on their time providing they get timely warning of what
is coming and, yes, they are able to deal with the legislation
when they have to enforce.
(Ms Asherson) I would like to add in that respect
there is some concern that although they do have 8-10,000 people
in various aspects across the Agency functions, we think it appropriate
that they are applied in terms of the needs of the environment.
For example, we have concerns that landfill sites that are currently
now golf courses, because of the structure of legislation, are
being visited by environment protection personnel four times a
week, whereas something like a large refinery establishment will
be visited perhaps more rarely. That would have to be considered
in many aspects. They might have got it right, it might be the
appropriate way that management is controlling the site.
323. In your own evidence, in fact, you indicate
that there are occasions when the Agency is failing to deal with
applications within the time period legally required?
(Ms Asherson) Yes, that was one of the concerns of
members.
324. Does that give an indication of a shortage
of staff or incompetent staff? What is your opinion for the reasons
for that?
(Ms Asherson) There was not one single reason. A lot
of it was they were under pressure for the changes taking place
within the organisation but also the system of referrals and instructions
from regional and central offices delayed many processes.
325. Is that the same north of the border with
SEPA?
(Ms Asherson) It was not found to be quite as marked
there.
326. But there is a problem?
(Ms Asherson) I do not think our members saw the IPPC
notification and licensing procedure as a problem in Scotland.
It was noted for England but not for Scotland.
Chairman
327. Is there a problem with the wage rates?
Are they competing to take people from industry or industry taking
people from them? Do they pay sufficient to get the people with
the skills?
(Professor Roberts) I think I have seen people from
industry go into the Agency and people from the Agency come into
industry. There is a two way transfer. I think there is a real
need for the Agency to recognise that they will have to pay appropriate
market rates to get the skilled inspectors to deal with very complex
processes.
328. Are they not paying the rates then that
are needed?
(Professor Roberts) I have no detailed knowledge of
what their pay rates are. I have seen job adverts for some Agency
jobs which have surprised me.
329. Surprised you that they are so low?
(Professor Roberts) Yes.
Mr Randall
330. What evidence do you have of inconsistency
between the different regions of the Agency?
(Professor Roberts) There is some. It is improving
dramatically and has done over time, as you would expect, but
there are differences. I believe a number of these relate to old
issues. We do not want uniformity, IPC after all is site specific,
but there are inconsistencies and one example I can quote is how
to deal with analytical data, particularly in terms of how to
deal with potential errors in measurements. I am aware that there
are major differences between different authorisations in different
parts of the country in the way this is handled. It is recognised
also by the EA and they are setting out to deal with it. It is
certainly one which has concerned a number of people, particularly
those who have got an onerous regime.
331. Do you think that on occasions decisions
made in the national level failed to filter all the way down to
the inspectors in the field?
(Professor Roberts) I think there may be an issue
from time to time as to the speed with which that transfers.
332. That is why there might be an inconsistency.
(Professor Roberts) That could be an explanation for
it but recognise that most of these are going back several years
and as authorisations are subject to variation and there is the
opportunity to update them. We are getting better.
333. Would you have any practical suggestions
as to how you might be able to combat this problem? Do you think
it is sorting itself out without any further need for help?
(Professor Roberts) It has been discussed at length
between industry groups and the Agency in various fora and we
are moving forward to get more consistent approaches.
334. What sort of suggestions would industry
have for improving this?
(Professor Roberts) The suggestion is we talk about
the issues and we are doing.
335. A lot of talking.
(Ms Asherson) There are many options. First of all,
I think there has to be an overview from the centre about what
the culture and direction of the Agency is about. They have got
to have a common hymn sheet and that perhaps would involve advanced
induction training and sharing of values so that they can put
their individual inspections and specific issues relating to the
site within the context of the overall culture and the need for
the Environment Agency's achievements to be measured overall.
You can achieve it by rotating staff through the areas so that
they get a view of different methods of working or perhaps regional
variations that might impinge on their attitudes but there are
costs in that that would have to be borne by the people within
the Agency as well as the Agency themselves. I think it comes
down to training, training, training and experience.
336. Do any of your members feel aggrieved that
they see another member in another part of the country having
a slightly softer touch perhaps from the Agency?
(Professor Roberts) I do not think it is seen as a
softer touch. They recognise the differences that are inherent
in the site specific approach. I think where people would be concerned,
and have been concerned about the example I quoted, is where it
is perceived to be easier in some parts of the country than others.
I think it is moving towards greater consistency. If I could add
one other thing. In terms of inspector confidence, we do see differences.
You might get a change in an inspector and a totally different
approach. I do not see that as one of competence, it is often
a younger guy who is coming through training and maybe less sure
of his ground. You can see the way they develop over a period
of time.
337. So you are saying it is confidence rather
than competence?
(Professor Roberts) Yes.
(Mr Hayward) I think there are two other issues, if
I may, as well. One is that we have offered as an industry a secondment
to the Agency so that they can learn what it is like at three
o'clock in the morning in the context of their training. It has
taken some time for that notion to be accepted. The second I think
in terms of consistency picks up not just this country but actually
setting this in the European context where interpretations of
IPC or its equivalent in Europe widely vary across different regimes.
We do not just have concerns of the sort that Professor Roberts
is talking about but we have them between countries and that is,
in fact, greater.
338. Where would you say that the UK comes in
that scale of how the regulations are seen?
(Mr Hayward) We take a more strict legalistic interpretation
than many countries.
339. That would lead to a little resentment
perhaps?
(Mr Hayward) It leaves a competitive problem, yes,
which may be a resentment, may not be a resentment. It is one
of the factors in the competitive jungle.
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