Examination of witnesses (Questions 100
- 113)
TUESDAY 28 MARCH 2000
CLLR NIGEL
ROSE, MR
BOB BENNETT,
MR SAM
RICHARDS and MR
PHIL JOYCE
100. Do you think it is a real possibility?
(Mr Richards) I think there is a build-up of European
law which the Inspectorate has to take on board, yes, but, for
the main part, the planning regulations are still with the Government
to make and amend.
101. Have you contemplated the effect of the
Human Rights' legislation and whether that would divide matters
in a completely different way than has happened before?
(Mr Richards) No, we have not gone into it from that
perspective.
102. Should you not be considering that with
some urgency?
(Mr Richards) I think, yes, we probably will. We have
not finished our work on it yet but we probably will, and we would
like DETR to do the same.
Chairman
103. How much help do local authorities give
objectors?
(Mr Richards) They try and make what can be a very
legalistic procedure as clear as possible to objectors. I do not
think that local authorities are helped by the legalistic procedure,
particularly in terms of local authority plans. In fact, if you
were to invent a system which put people off getting involved
in the planning process then the Local Plan inquiry one—where
one would need so much patience to go through from the start to
the end—would be the one you would probably invent. It is
not helped by the procedure. Local authorities do spend a lot
of time trying to explain very difficult procedures to residents.
104. Have the Ordnance Survey got a bit stroppy
about allowing local people to have the copies of the maps that
are used for planning purposes?
(Mr Joyce) Yes, they have and they have tightened
up as a result, I think, over the last few years, of their approach—their
business plan, if you like—in terms of how they market the
Ordnance Survey. I think that has possibly had a down impact on
people like householders who want to put planning applications
in. It has had a downward effect on that.
105. It is more difficult?
(Mr Joyce) For individuals. For developers I think
it is absorbed.
106. However, as a local authority it is more
difficult for you to provide to local people copies of the plans
on which things are submitted?
(Mr Joyce) Yes, we have very tight copyright. We have
agreements with the Ordnance Survey and we have very tight rules
and regulations with regard to that copyright.
107. The Ordnance Survey receives a substantial
grant from Government for providing a service for the administration
of the country. Do you not think they are rather cheating on that
agreement?
(Mr Joyce) I think they are wanting it both ways,
yes.
Christine Butler
108. Can I ask both local authorities involved
here, Waltham Forest and Leeds, whether when a planning application
is not yet determined and you have the file of objectors and consultees'
responses and so on—which is a public document—your
councils allow any copies of those consultees' responses to be
bought by an interested resident? What do you do? Do you charge
them lots of money?
(Mr Joyce) There are two points to make there. First,
we make them available, when an application is going to the committee,
three working days in advance, which is the requirement of the
Access to Information Act. So it is readily available to the public
before that time.
109. Only three working days?
(Mr Joyce) Three working days, because it is then
classified as a background paper. The papers are published for
anybody to inspect and they can buy copies if they so wish, or
inspect the background papers, which would be objections to the
objectors' representations made on the planning application.
110. My point is that it is only three working
days. We are back to accountability here: how can residents, looking
at that, and not liking something they might see, or liking what
they might see, have time to go to their local councillors—whose
duty it is to represent them—and say something before the
committee hearing?
(Mr Joyce) One of the things that we found is that
objectors sometimes are concerned that their objections are made
available to the public, and we are concerned about things like
the Data Protection Act and making information available to other
people that we are not entitled to do. We have had a number of
examples where there have been concerns expressed to the authority
about information being made available in advance of the three
working days that I have mentioned.
111. That is interesting. How much do you charge?
If someone said "I would like to buy the Environment Agency
response on this one. Let us have a copy of it to take home and
dwell on a little bit and, maybe, raise a few issues with my local
councillor", how much would you charge that individual?
(Mr Joyce) We have a standard rate which is published
and which we review every year. I cannot, off the top of my head,
remember what the standard rate is but there is no difference
between that and copying any other document.
112. £10? £1? 50p?
(Mr Joyce) It is probably about £1.50, or something
like that.
(Mr Bennett) Waltham Forest has a practice of telling
objectors that an item is going to the planning committee in advance
of it going to the committee and inviting them to actually look
at the committee report itself. The committee report itself would
paraphrase objections from residents.
113. I know, but should not the original documentation
supplied by statutory consultees—non-departmental public
bodies and all that—be open for inspection by the public?
Is that not an absolutely crucial measure, in fairness to third
party interests?
(Mr Bennett) It is the same point as Mr Joyce was
making. It is available but it is constrained by the Access to
Information Act in terms of the timing of it.
Chairman: On that note, can I thank you very
much for your evidence? Thank you very much indeed.
| 
