Examination of witnesses (Questions 200
- 219)
WEDNESDAY 17 MAY 2000
LORD MACDONALD
OF TRADESTON,
MR WILLY
RICKETT, MR
DAVID ROWLANDS,
MR RICHARD
BIRD and MR
PETER MCCARTHY
Chairman
200. long has that been in existence?
(Mr Bird) It has been in existence since the end of
1998.
201. How many recommendations has it brought
forward and how many have you acted on?
(Mr Bird) It published a report at the beginning of
this year. The report contained a number of recommendations which
the Government said that it was minded to—
202. How many of those have the Department acted
on?
(Mr Bird) We are already actioning a number of those.
Studies have been set up for example, to look at what—
203. It has been sitting all that time and now
you are going to have another study?
(Mr Bird) These are important local exercises involving
local authorities looking at local aspects of walking which the
Minister has drawn attention to as being at the heart of this.
Mr O'Brien: Has that instruction been sent out
to local authorities?
Chairman: Order, Order, it looks like we have
got a division.
The Committee was suspended from 16.25 to
16.33 for a division in the House
Chairman: We will start again and anybody who
complains will be asked to leave the room! Mr O'Brien?
Mr O'Brien
204. If I could briefly press you further on
what voice have pedestrians got in local authorities and if there
has been some directive sent from the Department to the local
authorities. I know they have road safety groups but they are
ad hoc and I am wanting something more firm inside local
authorities where pedestrians can have a voice on a number of
issues concerning pedestrian welfare and benefit in the local
authorities? Have any directives been sent out?
(Mr Bird) Indeed, the guidance on local transport
plans which went out to all local authorities in March was very
explicit about a) the importance of walking in local transport
plans and b) the need to develop local walking strategies in full
consultation with all interested parties including of course pedestrians
groups, and associated with that guidance was specific guidance
on producing local walking strategies so that local authorities
have got a lot of information available to them now to take this
very important area forward.
Mr Olner: Not much money.
Chairman: I think we will want to talk to you
about the split of monies again. Mr Donohoe?
Mr Donohoe
205. Turning to road maintenance if I might,
the upsurge in the number of claims of individuals who have had
their cars or themselves damaged by the state of the maintenance
of roads in itself indicates that there was too long between the
expenditure that has now been agreed and the fact that roads have
fallen into such disrepair both north and south of border. As
somebody who uses a car fairly frequently I have seen that. Although
that in itself is anecdotal the facts are overwhelming. What has
the Minister got to say on the criticism that the Government should
have acted earlier than they did?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) Certainly the quality
has been falling despite the extra expenditure. In our view, that
is because there is a two- to three-year lag between the increased
expenditure and improvements in the measured condition of the
network. The latest figures we have seen from the National Road
Maintenance Conditions Survey were for the condition in the summer
of 1999. We, of course, were constrained by the need to stick
to the previous Government's expenditure plans for the first two
years so we were not able to increase the funding very significantly
until 1999/2000 and we believe the results of that increase will
be significant, but of course they have yet to come through in
the condition figures.
206. Does the Government share the concerns
that I have that the safety of road users is being threatened
by the fact that we have got very poor maintenance being undertaken?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) What we are pleased
about is that there is now no backlog in trunk road maintenance
and the Highways Agency believe themselves that they now have
enough money to carry out the right repairs at the right time.
On the local roads, there is a substantial backlog, there is no
doubt about that, and we are trying to measure the degree of it
because you hear figures that vary from a backlog of £1 billion
to £5 billion. That has been very much the task of Willy
Rickett and his group in trying to see how much money might have
to be apportioned to try to improve the local roads network. We
have brought through this year a 23 per cent increase in the indicative
amounts allocated for road maintenance through local transport
plans. We hope local authorities will apply that money to maintenance
both of roads and of pavements. There has been some diversion
of transport monies in the past into other areas and we hope that
the vigilance of our new regime will ensure that does not happen.
207. At one stage it was 25 per cent into trunk
roads and the remainder, 75 per cent, into non-trunk roads. That
equation has been changed to 38 per cent to the trunk roads and
the remainder to local authorities. If that is the case I would
want you to comment because these are your figures and it does
not give any indication as to just what you have said is going
to be changed, particularly so far as local authorities are concerned.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) If I could say, Madam
Chairman, on the local transport plans there have been very marked
increases. As I say, there is a 20 per cent increase in the monies
for the plans this year taking it up to £755 million. Next
year there is a planned increase of over 30 per cent, and it goes
up to £1 billion, so the monies are being made available
to the local authorities. They have areas of discretion inside
them but Mr Bird could describe just how we want to see that money
targeted towards the improvement in the condition of roads and
Mr Rickett could perhaps look at the perspective going forward
on how the monies might be shared because that is what we have
been trying to analyze.
208. I am just looking for an answer to a simple
question, it might be that both of them can give it or one can,
that is, why has this equation changed? Why is it that it has
not moved in terms of the proportion spent? There is the same
amount of mileage in the roads, one presumes, why is it that this
has changed?
(Mr Bird) Our figures show that for the most recent
full year, that is 1999/2000 there was an increase all round in
all aspects of maintenance.
Chairman: I think I am going to take another
question.
Mr Bennett
209. There has been a great deal of de-trunking
and a cynic like me would say that the Highways Agency got rid
of the badly maintained roads and put it on to the local authorities.
The Department looks as though it is doing well and the local
authorities have all of the difficult roads to maintain.
(Mr Bird) To date there has been very little de-trunking.
There is a fair amount of discussion.
Mr O'Donohoe
210. What is the figure of de-trunking in percentage
terms?
(Mr Bird) Certainly the aim is to get up to the figure
that you were mentioning.
Chairman
211. Those are real figures that the Department
have quoted.
(Mr Bird) That was the aspiration in the Roads Review
and the Transport White Paper. It was recognised that it would
take a little while to get there. There is obviously difficult
and important negotiations to take place between the Highways
Agency and local Highways Authorities to get the financing right.
Perhaps I can, with agreement, offer to provide a note to the
Committee.
Chairman: Yes, a detailed note. I do not want
to go on with this too much more.
Mrs Gorman
212. I would like to ask the Minister, is this
20 billion, which sounds like an enormous amount of money and
spread over a whole decade works out at an average of two billion
a year, really such a grand sum at all? Is it not the case that
the road users are coughing out, in 1997/998 about £31 billion
in taxes, only £6 billion of which were ploughed back into
roads and public transport and that compares very badly with figures
of twenty-five years ago, I am using here the Road Transport Federation
figures, where something like the income was 13 billion and that
most of that money went back into the roads. This idea that the
Government is going to spend a small fortune on improving things
is a bit of a con?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) I am sorry, there is
no con involved, because we have not published our figures for
the ten year plan. To try and say to us you are going to spend
20 billion over the next ten years is misleading.
213. This figure is taken from your paper?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) I do not recognise the
logic of what you are saying, sorry.
214. The paper, as we understand it, suggests
that over the next ten years you are going to spend an extra 20
billion on new roads, it says, "Over a decade".
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) Perhaps I can bring
Mr Rickett in here.
Chairman
215. Mr Rickett, you are going to have all this
money, what are you going to do with it?
(Mr Rickett) I believe the reference to 20 billion
was in a report in the press about what might be spent in ten
years.
216. It is not unconnected with a press notice,
1198, 13th December, 1999. I do not think the press in this particular
instance made it all up.
(Mr Rickett) The Minister is right in saying we are
going to publish our plan in the summer and that is what will
contain the figures. I do not think it has ever been the Government's
policy there is a direct linkage in the amounts raised in road
taxation and what is spent on local transport and roads. The only
linkage that has been made is about any potential future real
increases in the fuel duty.
Miss McIntosh
217. Minister, if you look at page 89 of the
Report, first of all they say as regards de-trunking in section
5.66 that the Department held discussions with the Local Authorities
and the Local Government Associations about the related transfer
of resources. I have held off until today because Lord Whitty
was unable to answer this point when he gave evidence about the
targets for road safety. Is the Department saying that it is the
roads that are causing deaths? North Yorkshire stood out far and
above, it was the worst county in England, 165 deaths and injuries
per 100,000 of the population, most of whom were transiting through
the county. The Committee would like to know if more money is
going to be given through the SSA in addition to what you are
getting here? I am shocked, when you turn to trunk road maintenance
on page 89, in 1994/95 £850 million was spent on trunk road
maintenance and yet this year £755 million is to be spent
and next year only £746 million is going to be spent. By
spending less money than in 1994/95 I do not see how the Government
expect to meet the targets for road safety, to which it refers
most heavily in the Annual Report?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) As I said previously,
the Highways Agency believe that they have the resources available
that can keep the trunk roads system in a stable state. If they
can do that with the amount of money provided, and if looking
forward in the forecast, you are looking at a smaller trunk and
motorway network then, clearly, we have to make sure we are comparing
like with like there. What I can say to you is that we believe
that the condition of the trunk and motorway network is satisfactory
and stable in terms of maintenance and we will be able to provide
the resources going forward. One would hope, obviously, that the
cost of maintenance could come down just through the efficiencies
that would apply in any normal business. Given the way we have
sharpened up the performance of the Highways Agency over time
that would be the case.
Chairman: I have to say, my Lord, that this
Committee did a detailed report on the state of the maintenance
of roads—I am sure Mr Rickett and Mr Bird will be aware
of it—which show that because of a long period of decline
in maintenance the roads have now reached a situation where it
is not just a question of keeping them in what you call a stable
state, if they were allowed to go on much longer in their existing
state they would need to be totally rebuilt. It is not simply
a question of saying de-trunk some and shove it into another column.
It is really rather more complicated than that.
Miss McIntosh
218. The cost of repairing has gone up, because
the cost of oil has gone up the cost of tarmac has gone up.
(Mr Rickett) We accept that there is a backlog on
local road maintenance and this is a priority looked at in the
ten year plan, which will cover a review of spending in the year
starting next April as well. The Committee's points are well made
and will be taken into account in constructing the ten year plan.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) On the latest figures
that we have available, there are two indicators, as you will
know, one is the Surface Defects Index and there is also a Structural
Condition Index. The Surface Defects Index has got slightly worse
but the difference is not statistically significant, I am told.
The Structural Condition Index shows an improvement, so we do
not believe that there has been any deterioration in the overall
condition of trunk roads. As I say, the Chief Executive of the
Highways Agency tells us that he is satisfied that the backlog
has been eliminated and that the resources available to him are
adequate.
Chairman: Doubtless we shall question the person
in charge of the Highways Agency. I do not want to spend too much
time on this.
Mr O'Donohoe
219. One of the major, major problems in the
maintenance of roads in the past was that it was hunger and bust,
most of the maintenance was done in the latter part of the year,
which was probably the worst time of the year for that to happen,
because it was during the frost period. What has the Department
done to spread that? Is it now adopting what we heard in the budget
by the Chancellor that the local authority would be funded over
a three year period for the roads rather than a one year period?
How is the Government getting on with that?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) It is certainly our
intention to give people the perspective and the stability to
be able to plan ahead. What we have had by way of local transport
plans is a one year provisional plan, which came in last year.
We have said to the local authorities, "Could we now have
five year plans?" Those are due in July and we will be assessing
them and publishing them in December this year. We will be looking
five years ahead and that will be, as you say, inside the context
of a three year spending review and inside the context of a ten
year plan also. The reason for a ten year plan, as this Committee
will know better than anyone, is the very long lead times associated
with transport projects. That is why we believe that we should
have this ten year perspective.
Chairman: Mr Stevenson.
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