Examination of witnesses (Questions 320
- 342)
WEDNESDAY 17 MAY 2000
LORD MACDONALD
OF TRADESTON,
MR WILLY
RICKETT, MR
DAVID ROWLANDS,
MR RICHARD
BIRD and MR
PETER MCCARTHY
320. I go back to my bus companies who I know
quite well, should I say to local authorities, "If you want
some more money advise the bus undertakings to get rid of some
drivers." Do you see the point?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) I do take the point.
With respect, there is a very tight labour market within London
now and there is a great difficulty in trying to recruit drivers
at the wages paid so you could say—
321. I understand that but the other side of
that particular coin is that while vast additional resources in
London as a result of the circumstances there have been provided
and may have helped to stabilise the situation, outside of London
where no additional resources have been made available for the
reasons you have identified, Minister, the down side of that is
that services are being chopped. That cannot be acceptable, surely,
and therefore there seems to be a case that can be made for additional
resources outside of London? It may be a different case but the
case can be made, I would suggest.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) It is certainly a case
that we would listen to very closely but again to put it into
context, we have increased by 20 per cent this year the amount
of money paid in local transport plans and that increases again
next year. We have been in close contact again with the industry
and through our agencies DVLA and DSA on what steps we can take
to try and ease the driver shortage because it is going to develop
elsewhere in the country too. If there any evidence you wish to
give us we are happy to be informed on this.
Chairman: We will give you our report again.
Dr Ladyman?
Dr Ladyman
322. On April last year you lifted borrowing
restrictions on local authority airports, why have you never done
that for local authority over sea ports? When are you going to
do it on local authority over sea ports?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) I was not around last
April—I can pray that in aid—I hand over to Mr Rowlands,
if he has a memory of that.
(Mr Rowlands) We have not gone for local authority
ports and to be candid I am not aware of any pent-up demand for
it.
323. My letter is in the post.
(Mr Rowlands) Were it to be considered we would have
to go back to the basis on which it was done for local authority
airports. The regime was changed for financially stable local
authority airports, not every local authority airport got through
the gate and met the criteria. If we were to go down that road
it would have to be same position for local authority ports. Those
that are financially unsound could not expect such a concession.
324. Will you undertake to look at it?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) I will undertake to
look at
325. My second question is, the Civil Aviation
Act has a section which allows the Secretary of State to designate
an airport for the purposes of allowing local authorities to control
local environmental concerns. It is a section that has never been
used, the previous Government said it was unworkable, for one
reason or another, and they were going to repeal it. The current
Government said that they would replace it and give local authorities
a new power. Do we have any indication as to when that legislation
is likely to come forward?
(Mr Rowlands) I will have to check this, subject to
memory, I thought we had addressed the issue in the Transport
Bill. I will need to check that, if I may do so.[1]
Miss McIntosh
326. I have two questions, the first relates
to the financial support for rural bus services. I gather that
the sum will increase this year but will fall back in 2001/2002.
Has the Department assessed whether or not the increased expenditure
on rural buses will reduce the number of rural parishes that have
only very limited services and by the same token have they assessed
when rural bus grants are cut back in 2001/2002 that bus services
may be cut?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) Let me start by saying
that we have already announced that the grants will be continued
at least at their current level for a further three years, beyond
March 2001, so that recognise the need for continuity. That continuity
would be based on a total of 1,845 new or enhanced services introduced
as a result of grants in 1998/1999. Nearly 700 of those were entirely
new services and 1,100 of them were enhancements. Some 6,000 communities
have benefited from increased off-peak daytime services, 3,000
from peak-time services that have been increased during the week
and, very importantly, some 2,000 communities now have improved
evening services. That is about ten million passenger journeys,
we believe, that have been supported by the additional grants.
327. Rural?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) All rural.
328. Will they factor into the programme a full
consultation on the service so that all parish councils can be
consulted, even if it means extending the deadline to that which
is currently proposed? Could I just turn to the tendered bus service
contracts, ATCO noted that authorities withdrew bus services providing
364,000 journeys during the twelve months under review as a result
of a lack of funds. Could the Minister give a commitment to the
Committee today that local authorities outside London will be
provided with additional funds to offset a continuing rise in
bus contracts. Just those two points, first, to extend the period
to allow a full consultation for the rural grant services.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) If I may put it in context,
again if there were 364,000 journeys lost there were ten million
journeys gained in 1998/1999. There are some complexities here
about using grants to cover existing services. We tried to insist
there would be new and enhanced services. We are now beginning
to open up our criteria. Perhaps Mr Bird can give us the details.
(Mr Bird) Obviously the difficulty here is that we
do not want to be in a position where we want to encourage bus
companies to withdraw services in the expectation that they are
getting support for them, that obviously would not represent good
value for money. Nevertheless, as time goes on, as the arrangements
started in May 1998, there may be circumstances where it would
be reasonable to reconsider the possibility of funding services
which have been withdrawn since that date. That is something that
we are looking at and there would be wide consultation on.
329. On the tender bus service contracts, which
is a slightly different point, ATCO did express a concern because
of the cost going up so much and profit going down. I am sure
we all have examples in our own constituency where services are
being cut.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) We have obviously been
trying to get information on the impact of the investment we have
made in these 1,800 new rural services. It is still too early
to reach a firm judgment. We too get a lot of reports in of success
stories from councillors and local communities writing in to talk
about the increase employment and the better service. If there
are specifics you would like to give us I will try and address
it in more detail.
Chairman
330. I do not want to detain you much longer
but there one or two things that are important. Are you satisfied
with the response from the railway industry to the Ladbroke Grove
accident?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) With a
tragedy of that kind and matters of such complexity as rail safety,
I do not think one could ever be satisfied, Madam Chairman. What
I do feel is that every effort has been made by the Department,
very much led in this case by the Deputy Prime Minister with his
commitment to safety and in particular rail safety. The work that
has gone on in Railtrack and in the train operating companies,
driven by our Department and by other agencies, has been very
worthwhile. We have had two safety summits. We are looking forward
to seeing the progress of that being reported back later in the
year. I know that the Deputy Prime Minister has only very recently
seen representatives of people who were injured and the relatives
of those who were killed in the Southall and Paddington disasters
and they are involved in putting together some kind of forum to
look specifically at rail safety later in the year.
Chairman
331. Why is it that all this time after the
accident I am receiving written answers to questions saying that
the new safety company has not been set up, a managing director
has not been appointed, it is going to be some considerable time
because of the statutory need for Railtrack to consult with people?
This is really rather a leisurely response, is it not?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) I would certainly hope
not, Madam Chairman. We have been pushing that along as quickly
as regulation and legality will allow. We would hope to make the
announcement on the chair of this new body very soon.
332. And setting up the company? Because to
say Railtrack under their existing licence have to consult does
rather indicate there are some months to go before there will
be any movement on this.
(Mr Rowlands) The problem is that in setting up the
new company we will require, for example, the HSE to change the
safety case regulations and they cannot avoid the statutory requirement
to consult on those changes.
333. Nor should they, but we were rather given
the impression that the reason the private company was preferred
over the suggestion Parliament put forward was speed of action.
(Mr Rowlands) It would still be speedier than resorting
to primary legislation, although I think I ought to add that Ministers
see the setting up of this company as a sensible step to take,
but in no sense does it prejudice Lord Cullen's Inquiry. He may
want to make recommendations for wider ranging changes and they
themselves, of course, may encompass primary legislation.
334. Are you satisfied with the fact that Mr
Corbett has not removed himself from the scene and there has been
no change of directors and indeed Mr Corbett was reported in the
press as making a great fuss about several of his staff who were
allegedly drunk but does not seem to think that a major accident
requires the same degree of energetic response?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) Madam Chairman, if I
could direct you towards the statement that has been issued by
Railtrack today, I think you will see in that, it is a report
on their performance, that a lot of progress has been made over
the past year, overshadowed of course by the tragic circumstances
of Paddington but we believe the investment is higher than ever
before from Railtrack and there are very significant improvements
in many areas of their operation.
Chairman: Mr Bennett?
Mr Bennett
335. Cycling: can you offer us any good news?
Do you see any scope for your team making more journeys by bicycle
are perhaps the Select Committee making more journeys by bicycle?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) We have a cycling Minister
of Transport in Mr Keith Hill who does not hold a driving licence.
We have certainly inherited a very ambitious target on cycling.
336. But you have abandoned it, have you not?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) We have not abandoned
it. We have a target of quadrupling cycling by 2012.
337. That was a neat legal move. We can all
have good targets for the future but, as I understand it, in 1996
we were to double the number of journeys by 2002. That is getting
a bit close.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) That is a target I would
anticipate not being met but we have not put that inside our formal
targets. The 2012 target is there. I would personally prefer to
re-base in the year 2000 and encompass it in our ten-year plan
for 2010 but I think in the circumstances it is best left where
it is as a target for 2012. I am heartened to read that the increase
in cycling was five per cent last year in figures that came out
in recent days.
338. Do you think that the Government contributed
to that in any way?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) I believe that we have.
We have been encouraging to the SUSTRANS network. Again, that
was something that we have inherited—
339. That hardly covers people making journeys
work or doing anything else rather than leisure activities.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) Again inside our local
transport plans there is very firm encouragement towards cycling
and walking, as we have heard earlier, so I do not recognise the
suggested neglect.
340. So you are cheerful about this prospect?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) No, determined rather
than cheerful.
Chairman
341. Finally, do you want to tell us what has
been your most impressive achievement in the past year?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) Am I allowed to phone
a friend?
342. As long as you have got one in your Department,
my Lord, yes, fine.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) I think the most impressive
achievement, Madam Chairman, is the collective decision by the
Government that it required a ten-year plan to have a sensible
investment horizon for transport, something that had not been
accepted by previous administrations. I now look forward to getting
the resources in July which will show that that critically important
strategic position is backed up by the resources which will give
us the changes in transport that this Committee has very much
taken the lead in demanding.
Chairman: On that cheerfully unrealistic note,
can I thank you and your troops very much and say we shall look
forward to seeing you yet again when we shall have other figures
to discuss with you and we look forward to the number of notes
you are going to shower on us with great regularity. Thank you.
1 Note by Witness: This proposal is not in the
Transport Bill. The Government intends, as promised in the Integrated
Transport White paper, to consult on the details of the proposed
measures and introduce separate legislation, in light of the responses. Back
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