Examination of witnesses (Questions 60-72)
WEDNESDAY 26 JULY 2000
RT HON LORD MACDONALD OF TRADESTON AND MR WILLY RICKETT
60. I am not clear, my Lord, how much of the
new investment, the total investment to be made, will be generated
by tolls on trunk roads?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) There is nothing in
our ten-year plan that comes from monies raised on trunk roads.
61. So you do not expect any tolls of that kind
to be used for new roads?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) We have made no assumption
of that kind. I think it is £2.7 billion of income assumed
from local charging schemes but nothing from motorways or trunk
roads.
62. Before we leave rail, EWS has recently revised
its own targets downwards. Do you think that rail's share of the
domestic freight market can be increased to ten per cent by 2010
in relation to decisions like 44-tonnes?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) We believe that it can
be, Chairman, but, as you imply, it would be dependent on the
policies of investment not just of the EWS freight company, which
is largely dominant in that sector, but also of Freightliner and
perhaps others who enter the market. We have said that roughly
£4 billion could be ascribed to growing freight by 80 per
cent over the next ten years on rail and that will take a lot
of pressure off our roads and be environmentally worthwhile we
believe.
Chairman: Mr Olner wants to ask you about light
rapid transit.
Mr Olner
63. You mentioned 25 new rapid transit lines
in the ten-year plan, how many of those will be light rail systems
or will some of those schemes be based on buses?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) Again, we have not been
definitive at the central level about where these light rail lines
would be. What we have said is that the resources will be there
for 25 such lines at an average cost, perhaps, of £150 million.
We have also pointed out—
64. Are we talking about lines or are we talking
about 25 networks?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) We are talking about
lines. Six of those lines are already spoken for, they have been
greenlighted. Three in Manchester, Newcastle to Sunderland, Nottingham
and the Docklands Light Railway out to City Airport. Six already
spoken for but 19 more to be bid for and that process will begin
through the local transport plans. Again, while it would be wonderful
for me from a political point of view to say Bristol will get
its scheme or Portsmouth will get its scheme, what we have to
say is it will be subject to value for money, subject to competitive
bids from other conurbations in England. There are 19 more lines
to be bid for.
65. Of the other 19 you have not mentioned,
will the West Midlands get a few of those lines as well which
you did not seem to mention in your run up and down the country?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) West Midlands have one
line at present and I know that they have an ultimate aspiration
perhaps of nine in a network.
66. It leaves ten for the others then.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) They might come forward
with two or three in the years ahead. Similarly, Manchester, of
course, is the best developed of all with the three new lines
that we have greenlighted but they have got ambitions beyond that.
Leeds have ambitions to be involved, as have Liverpool. I hope
that the scale of what we are offering here means that we can
satisfy as many of those aspirations as possible.
67. Finally, and briefly on this, and it comes
back to something Miss McIntosh said, if it takes ten years to
implement a new line from conception to actually running it, how
realistic is it that you are going to have 25 of them running
in ten years?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) We are looking to some
of these lines in Nottingham, for instance, to come forward by
2003. I was in Nottingham just a few months ago.
68. I am talking about the other 19, Minister.
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) They will be phased
in but I would not anticipate it taking ten years for a tram scheme
to be introduced. I think I used that as an example for the time
taken for a medium sized road scheme.
69. So you do not have anything specific to
speed up procedures for getting these things up and running?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) We believe that the
principles we were talking about applying elsewhere could be applied
to some of the processes in the light rail and tram schemes as
well. I should say there is a timetable across the ten years that
has been produced by the Department which if you have not seen
I will encourage them to send to you. It is not utterly comprehensive
but it just gives you an idea of when things will be completed
across the ten years.
Chairman
70. Which of your targets should be used to
judge you by, my Lord?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) Ultimately, I believe
it will be the reduction in congestion on the roads.
71. Not the numbers of people you get out of
cars on to public transport?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) I think it would be
on outcomes, Chairman. The most significant outcome would be to
see a reduction in real terms in congestion over what it is today.
72. Is that not management of road space as
opposed to taking radical decisions in relation to the future
of transport?
(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston) No. As I said earlier,
I believe it is the interplay of all the aspects of this very
broad plan. I am delighted by the response that we have had from
all quarters of industry and the public sector saying that for
the first time the Task Force, led by Mr Rickett, has taken a
comprehensive look at the input from all modes, from all quarters,
and it seems to be a properly proportioned plan.
Chairman: Do not misunderstand me, my Lord,
we welcome this plan. It is the first time we have had a ten-year
plan for transport in so long; in fact, I am not sure we have
ever had a ten-year plan for transport. There is no doubt that
this Committee is not only behind you in having created the plan
but we are not going to be too far behind you. We just want you
to remember that we think these targets ought to be good, hard,
solid targets and if you come back here in a few years' time and
start talking about aspirational ones you may find this Committee
is not only behind you but is way out in front of you. Thank you
for being so tolerant this afternoon and we will let you escape
now. Thank you.
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