Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160
- 164)
TUESDAY 31 OCTOBER 2000
MR JOHN
MCCALL
AND MR
DINO ADRIANO
160. What responsibility do you think the Capel
Action Group has to engage in the waste management debate more
widely and get involved in waste reduction and recycling initiatives
as well as mobilising local people against a particular facility?
(Mr Adriano) I think that is difficult, although I
am sure we would be more than willing to do so. This Committee,
when it put forward its report in 1998, made the suggestion it
would be a good idea for retailers and manufacturers to consult
with local authorities and members of the public, and I do think
we need that grass roots involvement with the major businesses,
so that decisions can be made that in the end will result in a
reduction in the community and on what householders and citizens
in general believe is the right course of action. I do not think
these sort of debates have actually started, at least not on a
wide scale.
161. Finally, if you were going to advise Surrey
County Council as to how to do this process over again, how do
you think they should undertake it?
(Mr McCall) First of all, and we have been on record
on this, they should have entered as the waste disposal authority
into a short-term holding contract while these other matters could
have been considered—identification of proper sites, identification
of processes, technology. They got locked into a long-term contract
with the attraction of PFI money very early, really ahead of the
planning game. It was really that message we wanted our memorandum
to this Committee to come forward with, so that communities up
and down the country would see it. We are not here today to talk
about the particularities of our case, only to illustrate the
problems which local authorities face and the awkwardness which
arises when contracts and 30 year money come into a process, and
yet recycling is a pitiful 10 per cent in Surrey at the moment,
and we have district councils achieving better than that all saying
that a tension has been created between them and the county council
because they really wonder whether they will be able to build
on that. I find that very alarming. A lot needs to happen to try
to develop these other processes in the hierarchy. Incineration,
particularly mass burn without segregation, is harmful. I have
not heard any evidence to tell me it is harmless as the Directive
says.
Chairman
162. You have very usefully demonstrated to
the Committee how a lively local action group can set about highlighting
the problems of incineration but could you not do a little more
on the question that Mr Blunt has just asked you, demonstrating
how a local community could get up to something like 60 per cent
recycling?
(Mr McCall) We certainly could and it would be a partnership
with voices from the waste collection authorities. It would certainly
be with industry involved as well. At the moment this seems to
be very much a closed item between the waste disposal authority
and the contractor, and I am not sure they are bringing to society
the best benefits, and just because it is a cheaper option for
community taxpayers in the first place. I question what long-term
liabilities are being built up over time.
(Mr Adriano) I think you are right, we should be doing
much more of this but it does need to happen at all levels. We
need icons of change to be evident. I was in Germany very recently
and on Cologne Railway Station they have waste bins which are
actually segregated into four different types—glass, paper,
tin and then the rest. We do not have that in this country, we
have litter bins in public places which are not segregated, we
have not even started, as it were, from the very top to lay down
what it is that we want to move to in terms of recycling and better
waste management, and it needs all of this. We cannot start at
the parish level on our own but we can provide a lot of support.
163. That is really the question I am trying
to pursue, why you cannot start at the parish level. It seems
to me there is an argument that the whole of this is a top-down
process. Supermarkets, manufacturers, make decision and they impose
them on local people. What I am asking you is, in a reasonably
affluent part of the world, with reasonably capable people to
organise things, why can you not start to organise it so locally
there are the sort of bins that you have just described, so that
people make positive choices when they go along shelves in the
supermarkets that some things can be recycled easily, some things
cannot? That sort of power of individuals is not exercised.
(Mr Adriano) Clearly the parish council's terms of
reference would probably need to be changed but I am sure that
sort of discussion on public issues could take place. I think
the problem we face in Surrey at the moment is that our district
council, Mole Valley, finds it hard enough to pursue its own agenda,
which we would largely support, of improvements in recycling because
they do not get the co-operation from the county; a point I made
earlier. I think it is critical that point is dealt with. As far
as supermarkets are concerned, it will not be very easy for hundreds
of parish councils to deal with the major operators, the major
operators have actually got to be involved at a higher level.
164. But if you look at something like milk
in supermarkets, there are certain containers you can buy milk
in from the supermarket which are easy to recycle, there are others
which are difficult. If you simply put out a leaflet to all the
members of your group saying, "Buy this sort rather than
that sort", you are going to start to move the market on,
are you not?
(Mr Adriano) I think it has to be integrated rather
than organised on an individual basis like that. Clearly if the
supermarkets came on board in specific ways, I am sure local groups
would support them very much indeed.
(Mr McCall) My neighbours say, "Why
does the Government not say that plastic should not be used for
milk? Why is glass not imposed as it is in other countries?"
We have an ever increasing amount of plastic. We can make our
own point of view locally but I actually think the strategy document
could take a better lead on this. It may mean becoming unpopular
with certain areas of industry, it may cost more to put the glass
bottle on the shelf, but the cost to the UK over the next 100
years, I suggest, will be different.
Chairman: On that note, thank you very much
for your evidence. It has been very helpful.
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