Examination of Witnesses (Questions 205
- 219)
TUESDAY 7 NOVEMBER 2000
DR JANE
GILBERT AND
MR DAVID
MIDDLEMAS
Chairman
205. Can we make a start and welcome you to
the third session on Delivering Sustainable Waste Management,
and could I ask you to identify yourselves for the record, please?
(Dr Gilbert) I am Jane Gilbert, from the Composting
Association.
(Mr Middlemas) Good morning. I am Dave Middlemas.
I am the Co-ordinator of CCN, that is the Community Composting
Network.
206. I am assuming you do not want to say any
more at this stage, and you are happy to go straight to questions,
is that right?
(Mr Middlemas) Yes.
Chairman: And can I stress to you, if you agree
with each other there is no need for us to have that on the record;
if you disagree, please speak up quickly.
Mr Cummings
207. Good morning. This Committee's report of
1998 on Sustainable Waste Management described composting as "the
most successful facet of the waste strategy to date." Can
you tell the Committee what progress has been made in advancing
the role of composting in sustainable waste management since the
report was published in 1998?
(Dr Gilbert) We have seen an increase in all aspects
of composting, through from centralised composting, specifically
on-farm composting and community composting. I think, importantly,
we have seen the publication of the DETR's Composting Development
Group report in July of 1998, which set out a very broad range
of recommendations. Since then, composting has continued to increase,
although it has been hindered by a number of key factors, such
as obtaining planning permission and waste management licensing,
I think are the two major impediments at the moment, in the UK.
208. The Committee concluded its report by stating:
"we hope that a successful partnership will be established
to exploit the full potential of composting beyond the year 2000."
Do you believe that we have moved in that direction, that successful
partnerships have been established, and do you have any comments
in relation to the role local authorities are playing to date?
(Dr Gilbert) I think partnerships are beginning to
develop, and possibly through the Landfill Tax Credit Scheme,
that is enabling some key partnerships, such as the ReMaDe Projects,
the Association's Compost Marketing Network, and also the Community
Composting Network's efforts in promoting good practice. I still
feel though we have a long way to go. With regard to local authorities,
I think there are some that have put a lot of time and resources
into setting up well-run and well-informed source segregation
schemes, whilst others have played very little role, relying solely
on civic amenity site provisions. So there is a big disparity
across the country, or within local authorities, between those
that have demonstrated good practice and those that have failed
to take that on.
209. I get the impression, from what you are
saying, that no-one appears to be embracing with any degree of
enthusiasm the concept of composting, and lack of enthusiasm in
pushing it forward; do I detect that, from the answers you are
giving?
(Dr Gilbert) I think there is enthusiasm there, but
there is not the mechanism, necessarily, to enable that to be
translated into practice. I think, in the local authorities' point
of view, they are still having problems funding source separation
schemes, and there have been big impediments in obtaining planning
permission and waste management licences or exemptions for composting
schemes.
210. What suggestions would you have in order
to pursue this matter, to force the issue forward?
(Dr Gilbert) I would like to see a greater role played
by DETR in actually translating a lot of their recommendations
that were made within the Composting Development Group and putting
that into practice. I hope the Waste and Resources Action Programme
is going to be a very suitable mechanism to enable some of these
to be carried forward, but we do need to see a central co-ordinating
role, and I think DETR have a very important role to play in this.
At the moment, there seem to be quite a lot of hollow promises
but no actual action to back up the recommendations made.
211. Would you view 1998 to the year 2000 as
wasted years?
(Dr Gilbert) No, not wasted years; progress has been
made. But, given the targets that we have before us, in particular
the statutory performance standards, and the implications of the
Landfill Directive, it is not anywhere near enough, and we do
need to see a major shift in the way that we deal with biodegradable
wastes.
(Mr Middlemas) If I could make a few additional comments,
particularly with relevance to the community sector. Obviously,
since the last inquiry in 1998, we have seen the Landfill Directive
and waste strategy come out, both of which have set targets with
relevance to composting, and, given the high proportion of organic
waste in the waste stream, composting can make a very significant
contribution to addressing both those targets. With regard to
the community sector itself, you asked about local authorities
and partnerships, there is increasing evidence throughout the
community recycling sector of community groups entering partnerships
with local authorities and the private sector, indeed the community
sector is able to provide not just environmental benefits but
also social and economic benefits, so is able to start working
towards providing best value. The community composting sector
itself has developed and broadened in the last two and a half
years; however, we are still significantly hampered by the existing
exemption from waste management licensing. The current exemption
effectively makes community composting an illegal activity, which
is ironic, given the fact that it is a model of sustainability.
The review of the existing exemption has been due for six years.
In particular, in September 1999, we were assured by the DETR
that the consultation on a revised exemption would be published
in November 1999; the consultation document remains to be published.
And I would ask this Committee to put pressure on—
Chairman: I think if we come back to that issue
a bit later on that would be helpful.
Christine Butler
212. Mr Middlemas, are you content that the
proposed standards for waste collection authorities and waste
disposal authorities will result in an integrated approach?
(Mr Middlemas) With regard to that question, could
I ask Jane to answer it in my stead.
(Dr Gilbert) I have had a number of telephone calls
from members of the Association, expressing some concern about
this. Especially from the waste disposal authorities' point of
view, they feel that there is likely to be a rush to collect green
waste, in order to meet the targets which are looming up fairly
soon, by 2003, first standards; and what they are envisaging potentially
is, in effect, some competition between the collection authorities
and the disposal authorities for green wastes, to go towards the
targets. So this will not necessarily result in an increase in
materials collected for composting, per se, but what it
is potentially diverting are green wastes from civic community
sites through to collection authority-run kerbside schemes, potentially.
Chairman
213. What is this, turf wars?
(Dr Gilbert) Green waste wars, possibly.
214. Is there really evidence of friction between
the two authorities?
(Dr Gilbert) I do not have personal experience, because
I do not have personal experience in the local authority setting,
but, from discussions with members both from waste disposal companies
and from members within the local authority sector, there does
not appear to be the co-ordinated approach in place, in certain
instances, that we would expect to see. And I think we need to
have some mechanism in place, and I am not best qualified to propose
how that should be implemented, but we do need to see some mechanism
in place to ensure that there is effective co-operative working
between the collection authorities and disposal authorities, as
suggested in the Government's and Audit Commission's recent consultation
on best value performance indicators.
Christine Butler
215. But can you lay the blame on the performance
standards, on that, or is it something else?
(Dr Gilbert) Potentially. I think the two-tier standards,
whilst on one hand it is trying to raise the lowest common denominator
and get those authorities who are underperforming to improve their
performance, the fact that two standards have been set is potentially
going to lead to some element of competition. But I think there
is also a wider picture as well, it is not the standards, per
se, with regard to setting waste disposal strategies. There
is, in certain instances, from what I have been led to believe,
a lack of an integrated approach, and I think this is something
that does need to be addressed.
216. Where are you pointing the finger, really,
now, with regard to that?
(Dr Gilbert) I think there needs to be a co-ordinated
approach between the various collection authorities and the disposal
authority under which they operate. I am not in a position personally
to point the finger; all I am feeding back are concerns that have
been expressed to me, with regard to this.
217. Are you concerned that home and community
composting does not count towards the new statutory recycling
performance standards?
(Dr Gilbert) I am not concerned about home composting;
not that in any way I am saying it is of lesser value, because
it is not. It is very difficult, given that the standards will
be statutory, effectively to quantify diversion from collection
through home composting activities, it is very much dependent
upon the amount of education and resources that the local authority
or community groups have put into that.
218. Mr Middlemas, I just wondered if you would
like to comment on that?
(Mr Middlemas) Certainly. CCN expressed some concern
about the absence of home composting, particularly given the new
targets for local authorities, as laid out in Waste Strategy 2000.
CCN regard it difficult to see how local authorities can now have
a great incentive to promote home composting. With particular
regard to community composting, yes, we strongly express our concern
about the absence of community composting in the definition of
`composted' in the best value performance indicators, not least
because the definition of `recycling', in the same indicators,
includes collections made by the voluntary sector. So we would
like to see that situation included for composting as well.
219. Is it something to do with, do you think,
that, if a local authority, if a district council's waste collection
authority cannot get credit for certain things then they might
go cool on it and not encourage it?
(Mr Middlemas) There are a number of community composting
groups across the country that are able to record accurately the
amount of material that they are diverting from the waste stream.
For example, in Devon, in 1999-2000, 14 community composting groups
claimed 516 tonnes worth of recycling credits; so I think it is
very important that figures like that are acknowledged.
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