Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220
- 239)
TUESDAY 7 NOVEMBER 2000
DR JANE
GILBERT AND
MR DAVID
MIDDLEMAS
220. Dr Gilbert, what level of support did you
receive from the DETR in putting together composting standards?
(Dr Gilbert) Only goodwill.
221. Only goodwill?
(Dr Gilbert) Yes.
222. Did not anything come of the goodwill?
(Dr Gilbert) Not directly, no. We had to look for
Landfill Tax Credits to help us develop the standards, but we
have not received any core funding whatsoever to enable us to
research, to develop and implement the compliance scheme and the
standards.
223. Do you think that the standards for compost
should be on a statutory basis?
(Dr Gilbert) It is interesting that you say that.
At the moment, our standards and the compliance scheme are voluntary,
but it is interesting to note that a first draft of the document
from the European Commission, published on 20 October, on the
Biological Treatment of Biodegradable Waste, actually specifically
sets a number of different standards for different quality criteria,
which, presumably, if this is actually translated into the Directive,
would then become statutory within the UK. I think it is an important
step forward, and as they have proposed a range of different standards
for different materials and different applications, I think that
is very much ...
224. Has your Association made any assessment
of how, if we did have statutory standards, the marketing could
be improved, and by how much?
(Dr Gilbert) Not quantifying it at the moment, because
it is still very difficult even to begin to quantify how much
composting is going to carry on in the future, and a lot will
depend very much upon the waste streams which are actually composted
as well. From the Association's point of view, it is paramount
that composted materials are acknowledged as being safe and fit
for purpose, and that there is consumer confidence in the materials,
especially when they are applied to land for crops, or fodder
crops, where potentially they could enter the human food chain,
especially given the recent scares that we have had over a number
of health issues. So, with regard to marketing composts, good
quality materials that are safe for both the environment and end-users
is paramount.
Mr Benn
225. Is it essential that there should be separation
at source, if composting is going to be able to produce a product
which people want?
(Dr Gilbert) I think we would need to look abroad
to see what the situation has been in the past, where we had mixed
waste composting plants; a number of them have failed because
of the poor quality of the material, and particularly the inability
to extract small glass fragments from them. We have now seen a
case in countries such as northern Italy, Germany, Austria, for
example, where they have intensive source separation programmes,
they collect green waste at civic community sites, they are collecting
food wastes, I am talking about the municipal sector now, specifically,
from households, and then they are pre-treating the remaining
residual waste, as a stabilisation treatment only, either for
low-grade reclamation or for either disposal or energy from wastes.
So we have seen that these are models that have worked very well,
and they are actually resulting in good materials being produced
and materials being successfully marketed as well. So I think
that we need to look abroad to these countries to see how they
have actually carried them out, and where we could be taking the
lead from them. But my view, and I think the Association's view,
is that we need to produce good quality composts if we are to
ensure that we have sustainable markets, because composting is
only as good as the end use of the composts themselves.
226. Is that separation, in the examples you
have just given, done by the householders before it is collected?
(Dr Gilbert) Yes, primarily. We are looking at, in
terms of source separation, programmes for householders to separate
out specifically the green wastes, their vegetable and their fruit
wastes, not necessarily the meat wastes, but we are looking at
collecting them separately for higher-grade materials that can
be applied confidently, for example, onto agricultural land to
help improve soil organic matter.
(Mr Middlemas) If I could just add, it is certainly
CCN's view that source separation is essential to produce the
highest quality composts; but not only that, what it also implies
is that other recyclables in the domestic waste stream are not
contaminated by being mixed with organic waste.
227. You mentioned glass; is that the principal
problem with compost made from mixed waste?
(Dr Gilbert) Yes. They also have high heavy metal
contents as well, and other contaminants, that if you do not really
know what is going into the waste stream, you do not really know
what is going to remain after you have done the composting process
and come out at the other end. So there are other issues about
potential contaminants arising from other mixed wastes that are
going in.
228. And what are the markets, currently, for
mixed waste compost?
(Dr Gilbert) It is being used primarily either as
daily landfill cover or for restoration of landfill sites. There
is some work, I am led to believe, for mining reclamation, but
generally low-grade materials, at the moment.
229. If you do not mind me asking, what is done
with all of the vast quantities of leaves that fall each year,
to what extent can that be used, in any shape or form?
(Dr Gilbert) I think that has great potential. There
still needs to be concern where leaves are swept up next to roads,
although the phasing out of leaded petrol, I think, has gone a
long way to reducing lead contamination. We have a major resource
there that we are currently landfilling a lot. Leaf composting
schemes over in the USA, in particular, have been widely used,
especially keeping them and then mixing them with grass-cuttings
during the summer as well; and there have been a number of very
successful schemes, such as Montgomery County scheme, in Maryland.
We have great potential there, yes.
230. So you are saying, currently, it goes mainly
to landfill?
(Dr Gilbert) As far as I am aware, yes, to the best
of my knowledge.
(Mr Middlemas) Within CCN, there are examples of successful
leaf composting schemes; it is particularly valuable as a peat
substitute.
Mrs Dunwoody
231. And do you sort out the ones that come
from trees alongside roads?
(Mr Middlemas) I have had experience of a successful
scheme in Sheffield, where the leaves from municipal parks and
gardens were delivered to a number of allotment sites across the
city, and actually ended up with leaf composting taking place
very close to where the leaves were falling and not being trucked
to the other side of the city for landfill.
232. But, generally speaking, because Dr Gilbert
said that there might be a problem with using leaves that have
been gathered from roads, do you believe that, do you do anything
about it?
(Mr Middlemas) There is a possibility of that, as
I mentioned in—
233. But you do not say that you will not use
leaves that are gathered from roads?
(Mr Middlemas) As I mentioned in my answer, the successful
scheme I have got experience of, composted leaves from parks and
gardens, and not from roads.
Mr Olner
234. Could I just probe with Dr Gilbert, just
a little on the answers you gave to Mr Benn. How do you envisage
ensuring that people do separate their green wastes; we are having
a hell of a lot of trouble now getting them to sort paper out
and bottles out?
(Dr Gilbert) We need to see a mind-shift in the way
the public deal with waste.
235. So what can legislators do to make that
mind-shift happen?
(Dr Gilbert) The public need to be made aware of the
actual costs of waste collection and waste disposal; at the moment,
it is not seen through the council tax. They put their bin out,
or their sack out, once a week, it is taken away, it has gone,
it disappears. We need to make the public aware of the cost of
it, and also what the implications are. I think the public have
an understanding but they need to be made aware of this. I think
the National Waste Awareness Initiative will have a very key role
to play in that, and I do think that that is something that needs
to be backed wholeheartedly by Government.
(Mr Middlemas) If I could comment, additionally. One
way we need to go down is to perceive education as a vital component
of waste management budgets. I will draw reference here to a successful
scheme recently run in Daventry, which involved a private, public
and community sector partnership in this scheme, of around 5,000
households, of kerbside collection of green waste. The recycling
rate in that area rose in a year from 12 per cent to 51 per cent.
The three partners involved, obviously, the local authority, the
private sector company that did the composting, but also a community
sector organisation, in this case Waste Watch, that provided intensive
education and support to householders, that included home visits,
publicity, information, telephone advice lines, and that was absolutely
crucial in being able to achieve such high targets.
Mr Olner: No naming and shaming then.
Chairman
236. But if I have got a used carton that has
got the remains of some curry and chips in it, am I really going
to be happy to put it into a green waste collection system, rather
than perhaps scoop it up and put it down the sink, where perhaps
the liquidiser in the bottom of the sink will get it away into
the sewage system far more efficiently than having it hanging
about the house for a day or two and then being collected?
(Mr Middlemas) I feel that the emphasis from Government
should be towards source separation and not towards end-of-pipe
solutions in waste management. So, certainly, I would do all we
could to encourage householders to separate material at source.
237. I understand that, but is it realistic
that people are going to scrape out the curry and chips, or other
food remains, really efficiently, like that?
(Dr Gilbert) Once again, we are looking at a change
in mind-set. It has been too easy just to put it in the bin and
expect it to be taken away and dealt with. Of course, there are
going to be materials that are best left in the waste stream and
treated through end-of-pipe technology, such as mechanical biological
pre-treatment, to stabilise perhaps those sorts of materials.
But we still do have a significant quantity of organic materials
entering the residual waste stream and contaminating dry recyclables
as well, in particular the paper fraction. So we do need to see
some change in habits.
Mr Benn
238. Apart from composting standards, which
we have talked about, what else needs to be done to develop markets
for compost?
(Mr Middlemas) If I could comment initially. I feel
that it is important that the Government promotes an alternative
logic to marketing composting and marketing compost, namely: if
householders compost at home then the compost is inevitably used
by the householder; if organic waste is composted in the community
then the finished compost is inevitably used by the community;
if organic waste is composted on farms then the compost is inevitably
used by the farmer. Whilst CCN welcome the emerging standards
for compost, the Waste Resources and Action Programme, mentioned
in the strategy, we regret the fact that that alternative logic
to marketing compost was not emphasised enough in the strategy.
(Dr Gilbert) We need to see good practice with regard
to the production of composts that we have, good quality materials
coming out, with defined characteristics as well, and that is
going to be increasingly important for the professional sectors.
We need to see a co-ordinated marketing campaign of some sort,
and some members of the Association have called for a sort of
campaign similar to that which the Milk Marketing Board initiated
a number of years ago, the previous Milk Marketing Board.
Mrs Dunwoody
239. And much good it did them.
(Dr Gilbert) But what we need to ensure is that we
actually communicate with the relevant sectors, for example, the
NFU, the National Farmers' Union, the landscaping sectors and
other professional bodies. A lot of people are not actually aware
that materials are being produced and of the characteristics,
and composters might talk in one set of terms, with regard to,
for example, organic matter content, whereas landscapers will
specify in a different set of terms, so we have terminology barriers
that we need to start networking with them so that we are talking
similar languages as well. So I think we need to begin to collate
and disseminate relevant information, to have the standards backing
that up as well.
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