Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 80)
WEDNESDAY 8 NOVEMBER 2000
MR IAIN
FINDLAY, MR
ANDY MOONIE,
MR ANGUS
MACCORMICK,
MR LAURENCE
KING AND
MR NICK
EWING
60. Will it all be working on the date that
it is brought into you?
(Mr Findlay) Not all the equipment will be there and
available. I will pass you to Nick Ewing to answer that.
(Mr Ewing) There are approximately going to be about
40 changes to the system that will not be put on to the system
prior to `O' date. It has been considered by the members of the
NERC training team, that they are not safety-for-operational impact,
with those not being on the system, they are fundamentally to
enhance the system and make the job easier for the controller.
61. The transfer is to be done in January because
on the whole traffic is much lighter at that time of the year.
By the time the traffic builds up in summer will the system be
able to cope with the build up of the traffic?
(Mr Ewing) The idea is that you gain experience during
the quiet time of the year, although it is not particularly quiet
in January and by the time you hit summer levels of traffic you
would have gained enough experience to handle the requirements.
62. While this is being introduced what is happening
about the safety regulation group? Has that been given a back
number or is the safety regulation group operating as effectively
in this transfer period?
(Mr Findlay) The safety regulation group will be under
a great deal of pressure, I am sure, to actually bring Swanwick
in on time. I am also very clear that those people that are in
the safety regulation group know what safety is about and they
will make sure that the system is as safe as possible at that
point.
63. In the whole transfer process you told us
earlier that they were probably 50 controllers short. Is there
going to be a real difficulty in doing the new training and maintaining
the system?
(Mr Findlay) Yes, without a doubt there will be problems
in that area. It is a major task to actually keep a system working,
together with training people for a new task.
64. Given the time likely to train the people,
that shortage is getting pretty critical, is it not?
(Mr Findlay) Yes, it is a critical shortage. There
is a shortage—not that it helps us—throughout the
world of air traffic controllers. It seems there are not as many
people nowadays wanting to become air traffic controllers.
Chairman
65. I cannot imagine why. It is such a nice
job, so relaxing.
(Mr Findlay) It is relaxing, easy to do. People are
not applying in the same numbers as before.
Mr Bennett
66. What are you as a union doing to encourage
people to apply for the jobs?
(Mr Findlay) We are trying to ensure that as many
people as possible know about air traffic, know about the job.
We, in fact, promote air traffic throughout the world as a good
job and, in fact, as a task that is very essential.
Mr Olner
67. I wonder how aware your members are of the
new arrangements put in place by the CAA to deal with the NATS
after the PPP?
(Mr Findlay) As a union we look after the CAA and
that actually comes as a surprise to me. I do not know of any
new arrangement. I think one of the things that people think is
that the separation of the CAA and NATS is something new. In actual
fact, what has happened over the years is that NATS and the CAA,
the safety regulator, have been at arm's length.
68. That is right, though, that is how it should
be.
(Mr Findlay) We have no qualms about that whatsoever.
What we have said is that the CAA comprises not only the safety
regulation group but the economic regulation group as well. We,
as well as NATS, are at loggerheads with them because of some
of their ideas.
Chairman
69. I want some fairly sharp answers. Near misses
and the loss of separation, how many have occurred during the
various periods of computer failure this year?
(Mr King) Certainly with regard to June 17th—I
cannot tell you about some of the others—we have no information
that any losses occurred that day. That is not to say there was
not an increase risk of such occurrences happening within such
unusual circumstances. As for overall totals in other days I do
not have that information.
70. Is that because you would get that, in a
sense, in arrears, you get that after the event?
(Mr King) In total numbers, yes.
71. How many commercial aircraft have opted
to fly in uncontrolled airspace during computer failures at LATCC
because the pilots get fed up?
(Mr MacCormick) I do not have any information on that.
I know there were some.
72. There is some anecdotal evidence. What we
need is some indication as to whether this is anecdotal or whether
there is something actually happening. You are not aware of that?
(Mr King) Aircraft did leave controlled airspace,
as they are allowed to do, and work with other operators, probably
the military, to take short cuts to avoid further delays. In terms
of total numbers we do not have that information.
73. What pressures are going to be put on to
the system if there is delay over the New Scottish Centre?
(Mr Findlay) That, of course, would be a major problem
because the New Scottish Centre is designed to expedite the airspace
that is available and with new technology it would be much more
helpful to have that Centre in place. It would cause delay.
74. Can I just ask you one thing, Mr Findlay.
You know that this project has been badly handled in the past
and you now tell us that it is under control. Are you confident,
not as an engineer dealing in IT but as someone responsible for
air traffic control, that the bugs in the system are now going
to be ironed out so that when this system finally comes on stream
and when Swanwick is ready and fully operational, it will be possible
for the air traffic controllers to provide the high level of care
that we expect?
(Mr Findlay) Absolutely, because our controllers and
engineers would not let it work if there were still bugs in the
system.
75. Does that indicate to you that there is
at least a possibility that the system may not come on stream
on the date at which it is expected?
(Mr Findlay) No. There is always that possibility
because there may be a bug so big that it is safety critical and,
therefore, it will not be brought on stream.
Mr Bennett
76. Between now and then are we going to have
another problem like we had on 17 June, or is the present system
going to be robust enough to get us through to the new one coming
in?
(Mr Findlay) We could have another problem. It may
not be the same problem because I think that has been fixed. Yes,
of course there could be a problem.
(Mr MacCormick) We did have the same problem last
weekend, I understand, twice it happened, although not to the
same extent. On late Friday afternoon the computer was out for
20 minutes. That did not result in much delay, especially compared
with the 17th. I understand while trying to repair part of the
computer on the Saturday evening it did not start properly until
the Sunday morning and precautionary flow control was put on and
there were quite extensive delays on Sunday morning last weekend.
Chairman
77. This is a completely different pattern from
the pattern we have expected in the past, is it not? We did not
expect routinely to have a number of failures. We are not in the
winter as well, we are not actually talking about what would be
regarded as the high peak traffic.
(Mr MacCormick) Anecdotal evidence, again, amongst
controllers is, I understand, that these things are related to
new patches that have been put on to the computer associated with
the Swanwick system.
78. What you are saying is that the old system
coped perfectly well hanging together with string, until somebody
came along and got the extra money, which this Committee asked
for as well, I have to say, to upgrade the system and what is
happening now is that the extra pressures being put on the system
are resulting from time to time in glitches which are not only
holding people up but are causing real delays?
(Mr MacCormick) I am not a software engineer, I could
not—
79. Since we are dealing in anecdotal evidence,
Mr MacCormick, what are you telling me? Are you saying to me that
the old system more or less worked and now you are not sure it
will do because the pressures put on it are too great? It is all
right, no-one is going to prosecute you if you are wrong and they
certainly will not prosecute you if you are right.
(Mr MacCormick) My personal feeling is that I am satisfied
with the computer, I have used it for ten years at Heathrow very
successfully. In actual fact, if you look at the capacity of the
overall system we have actually gone up 49 per cent since 1989.
80. On the old system before anybody started
mucking about with it?
(Mr MacCormick) Absolutely. That is what the New En
Route Centre was designed to cope with and we are actually at
that level now. My personal feeling is that you tinker with something
that you are a bit uncertain about -I put a new programme on my
computer and it does not quite work properly—and, as we
said earlier, it is very, very difficult to 100 per cent test
that.
Chairman: On that note of unalloyed joy can
I thank you very much for coming. Thank you, gentlemen.
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