WEDNESDAY 29 MARCH 2000
_________
Members present:
Mr Andrew F Bennett, in the Chair
Mr Hilary Benn
Christine Butler
Mr Brian H Donohoe
Mrs Gwyneth Dunwoody
Mr Clifford Forsythe
Mr James Gray
Dr Stephen Ladyman
Miss Anne McIntosh
Mr George Stevenson
_________
EXAMINATION OF WITNESSES
RT HON ESTELLE MORRIS, a Member of the House, Minister for School
Standards, and BARONESS BLACKSTONE, a Member of the House of Lords,
Minister for Education and Employment, Department for Education and
Employment, examined.
Chairman
628. Can I welcome you both to the Committee. Could I ask you to
introduce yourselves for the record.
(Estelle Morris) Thank you. Estelle Morris, Minister of State in the
Department for Education and Employment.
(Baroness Blackstone) Tessa Blackstone, also Minister of State
in the Department for Education and Employment.
629. Do you want to say anything by way of introduction or are you
happy to go straight into questions?
(Estelle Morris) I am happy to go straight into questions.
Chairman: James Gray?
Mr Gray
630. People have often blamed the flight of population from our
cities to the countryside as a direct result of failed or poor schools in the
inner cities. How do you react to that?
(Estelle Morris) I think that there is an element of truth in that.
If you look at the surplus places you tend to find they are more predominant
in the urban areas. I have not got figures about surplus places within urban
areas but, anecdotally, when you go to inner city schools there is a lot of
spare space there. That was why in particular the Prime Minister and the
Secretary of State launched Excellence in Cities. It is interesting and it
had two main thrusts. One was to raise standards in urban education and the
second one, which is equally important, was to raise the perception of
standards in urban education because I think what is true is that even in
inner city schools that are performing at a good level there is a general
perception that the schools are not good and what clearly does happen with
certain catchment areas and admissions policies I believe it is the case that
people move out so that they can be near what they perceive to be a better
school.
631. I am sure the Minister is right in saying perception is
important and it is important to make people think these schools are good, but
surely more important than perception is the amount of money? Surely, what
you are saying is that more money should be spent on failing urban schools
than spent on rural schools? Is that right?
(Estelle Morris) There are some failing rural schools. I know that is
not the cause of your concern but I would not like to give the impression that
I do not appreciate poverty in rural areas as well. If we look back,
governments of both persuasions have tried to put extra money into urban
education and the truth is that that money has not bought about the
improvements and the step change that we want. Whereas I agree entirely that
schools in urban areas need more money, money by itself will not raise
standards and that is why our Excellence in Cities project tries to do
something different with the money. It tries to attack the underlying causes
of under-achievement in those schools and give the support that is needed.
For the 35 local authorities that were in the first tranche of Excellence in
Cities it is £350 million. You will be aware that the Secretary of State
announced an expansion to a further 21 local authorities and to primary
schools in the first round ---
632. What would you say to local authorities such as my own,
Wiltshire County Council, who say that it is demonstrably unfair that children
in inner city schools get something like £3,000 or £4,000 per year spent per
head whereas in Wiltshire it is something like £1,000 or £2,000 to use broad
figures?
(Estelle Morris) I think there are two issues there that are not quite
the same. I suspect the council is complaining about the SSA formula which
differentiates between children, as far as I can see, with no rhyme nor
reason. I have made my views perfectly clear on that. I cannot justify the
SSA and I cannot justify why children in your area may be seen to be worth
less money than children in a comparable area, I use the term comparable, and
as the Committee will know the Government will be producing a Green Paper in
the summer. I would argue that in order to raise standards for every child
in every school, there are some children in some schools who face such a
multiplicity of disadvantage that extra resources are needed. I would be
prepared to defend more money in schools in inner city urban areas than
compared for instance with affluent suburbs, but I am not prepared to defend
the way the SSA works.
Mr Gray: Wise decision! I am glad to hear that there is a dialogue
going on within government. Still on this topic - it is an expression I hate,
it is such jargon and slang - of joined-up government, what contribution ---
Mrs Dunwoody: Do not use it then! The English language is very, very
colourful; it can be used in a hundred different ways.
Mr Gray
633. The honourable lady is quite right. I will not use it again.
(Estelle Morris) I promise not to use it as well otherwise I will get
into trouble!
634. What sort of contribution are you making to the drafting of
the Urban White Paper?
(Estelle Morris) We have a representative of our Department there.
Tessa Jowell sits on the group that is doing the Urban White Paper. I know
they met at the end of February. We entirely accept our responsibility as the
department that looks after schools and acknowledge that schools play a part
in regeneration of inner city and urban areas. Within that context we will
be making whatever contribution we can.
635. I hope a very major one. If you agree, as you have done,
that failure of poor schools in inner cities is a very good reason why the
urban renaissance has not yet happened, then presumably ministerial input from
the DfEE is going to be vitally important in having a worthwhile White Paper
at the end of it?
(Estelle Morris) That is one of the outputs - another word I do not
like - that is one of the ways in which we judge the success of Excellence in
Cities. It will be at the end of the day whether parents exercise a choice
to send their children to schools in urban areas. I think schools have an
added responsibility in urban areas as well in that in some areas they are the
only focus for the community, they are the only place where out of school
leisure activities go on and it is a meeting place for those with a range of
professional skills that can support the community. It is not as important
because it is not the prime responsibility of schools, but when we are talking
about urban regeneration I know the Secretary of State, David Blunkett, is
very keen to ensure that schools act as a focal point for the community as
well.
Mr Benn
636. Just pursuing this theme of outward flight, what effect do
you think an unbalanced intake has on the school left in the middle?
(Estelle Morris) I think diminishing numbers has a greater impact. I
will come back to that question, but I think what happens when you have urban
flight is, if you do not watch it, the school withers on the vine and it
almost gets to the stage of a secondary school with a couple of hundred
students where it finds it very very difficult to manage the curriculum. I
think one of the pressures which heads face each year is that they have still
got the overhead costs of the building but they have got less revenue because
80 per cent of it is pupil-led and they are finding themselves getting rid of
staff. They come to an issue as to whether they can offer that broad
curriculum. Also I do not think it does anything for self-esteem. Schools
measure their own success by how many first choices they have got and I think
they quite honestly feel low if parents are not choosing them. I think there
is that problem and I think it is possibly more one of diminishing numbers
than of anything else. The first question?
637. Do you accept there is also an issue about the balance of
intake?
(Estelle Morris) Yes and no. I think that what schools have got to do
is the best by the children they have got. I have never been one particularly
for believing that in order to enable children from low socio-economic groups
to achieve we have to socially mix them in schools. I think it makes it
easier but I would not want to give the message that it is the only way of
doing it. We know schools in Tower Hamlets and other urban areas where they
have raised standards with the children that have come through their doors.
I do know from speaking to heads that sometimes there is a feeling that
perhaps the children who do not exercise the right to urban flight are those
who have got parents who feel less confident about understanding the system
and they are sometimes the very same parents who, no matter how hard they try,
find it difficult to be partners with teachers in the child's education, so
what happens is that the children who are left behind in the school sometimes
have the multiplicity of disadvantage that I talked about. I think it is a
rough time but I think schools that are in inner cities with children from
poor family backgrounds where the schools are full can achieve it. I do not
think we have to manipulate socio-economics.
638. I can think of one school in my constituency which has got
five Kosovan children who are currently in year 11 and will count towards the
GCSE score on which the effectiveness or otherwise of the school will be
measured and they feel very strongly that for parents looking outside to see
where they rank in the league tables no account is taken of fact that with the
best will in the world and very good teachers you cannot get them to level and
that is a real concern. Do you accept that? Can we not find some way of
better assessing the effectiveness of those inner city schools, in particular
value added measures which, as you know, they are very keen on?
(Estelle Morris) Yes I do and I think it is something that is growing
in importance. Some schools now have 60 odd per cent pupil mobility within
a year. I visited a primary school in Hackney and it had a year six group of
20 students and three went out and two came in in the weeks before the key
stage 2 SATs. If you look at the percentage that that took off its possible
SATs results, it was quite damaging to it. I do accept that. OFSTED, as the
Committee may well be aware, accepts that as well. I think the whole issue
of pupil mobility is one of the biggest challenges facing schools and I do not
pretend to have the answer. We set up a report which Dr Janet Dobson from the
Institute is working on. She has produced the first phase of that which was
an analysis of the problem, which is perhaps easier than the second phase of
coming up with the solutions, which we are expecting this summer. We have got
to move to value added. That is the only way to give a clear picture of what
schools have added. Can I say it works in the affluent suburbs as well.
There are some sleepy schools out there coasting in the middle of the table
who are not doing well given the ability range of the students when they went
in. I would want to move to value added when we can. I think we will have
the data in about 2003.
639. Do you accept that that would be a more complete measure?
(Estelle Morris) Yes, but I would not want it to replace the five As-
Cs, I would want it as well.
Chairman: George Stevenson?
Mr Stevenson
640. On exactly the same point about funding and standards and so
on, Minister, you said earlier on that you could not justify the SSA and the
Green Paper will arrive this summer. Given the undoubted importance of the
whole of the education spectrum in regeneration and quality of life, which is
what we are talking about, and the importance of local authorities in that
process, would you be prepared to offer any view as to whatever changes are
made to the system of finance and whether that should be, as seems to be a
trend that is developing, directly from government bypassing local
authorities, or be directed through local authorities given their crucial role
in regeneration of the whole quality of life?
(Estelle Morris) It would not be proper for me to jump up and say what
will be in the paper. I would not want to do that. We see a very clear role
for local authorities. In terms of a word we do not want to use, joined-up
local and central government, I think that clearly they must have a role in
raising standards as well. What we would want is greater clarity because I
think as well, as the SSA system being unfair, it lacks clarity at the moment
and schools sometimes do not understand where the money has gone because their
budget does not match the headline figure. How we achieve that clarity you
have given two models, one to fund it through the LEA and one to fund schools
directly and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that.
641. I understand that. Perhaps I could rephrase the question
very quickly before the chair stops me. Given the crucial role that local
authorities have played and will play in the regeneration of their areas, as
shown by the Urban Task Force Report, and how important education is as part
of that, do you recognise how important that local authority activity is and
how important, therefore, education is as part of that local authority
activity in the regeneration process?
(Estelle Morris) Yes, I do.
Mr Benn#
642. One headteacher in my constituency said to me recently when
I visited the school, "It's not that our kids are any less intelligent but
they lack self confidence and aspiration." Can you tell us how Excellence in
Cities, which the school is now benefiting from alongside others in Leeds, is
going to address that issue?
(Estelle Morris) I think that analysis is right. You do know if you
have taught in inner cities, which I did for some years, two things, one, that
children are as bright as anywhere else and, two, that they have got to
overcome more barriers than children anywhere else to achieve that potential.
There are a number of strands. One of the problems facing teachers who teach
in the inner cities is they have to be more than a teacher. If they do not
watch it they become a pseudo probation officer, a pseudo social worker,
councillor, advisor and family help, and those are the children who most need
more teaching and more of the teacher's time and teachers often find their
time dissipated in doing social functions. I know that if children bring in
those problems with them at the start of the day they have to be dealt with
and the teaching cannot start until they are. The learning mentor strand of
Excellence in Cities where certainly the schools in your constituency would
probably have the lion's share of the money in the EDIC area ---
Chairman
643. If you can try and avoid the jargon.
(Estelle Morris) I did it twice in one sentence for which I apologise.
In the Excellence in Cities areas the learning support mentors, I think that
is what they are called, could actually do some of those tasks that have
fallen to teachers. One way of raising pupils' esteem is to work with them
to overcome the problems that sap their self-esteem. If I can take one more
strand, I also think the gifted and talented scheme as part of Excellence in
Cities is important as well. I think for too often we have said that if a kid
is bright they will succeed despite the school and the second thing we have
said is that inner schools have enough on their plates with dealing with the
many children who have special educational needs. That is where their
attention must be and they have not got time to coach the gifted and talented.
I think when you have got an initiative where it is a government and a school
and a local authority giving that top-line message that there are children in
this school, whether inner city or elsewhere, who are gifted and talented and
need the support to raise standards, that introduces into the school a feeling
of high aspiration and a feeling of what is possible.
Miss McIntosh
644. Returning to this vexed question of joined-up government,
could I just ask with the announcement that the Government has made of City
Academies does that mean City Technology Colleges have failed?
(Estelle Morris) I think they have had some remarkable success, the 15
that were set up under the last Government. I think they have done a lot to
re-engineer teaching and learning and I think the three that I have now had
the chance to look round you could not fail to be impressed by the way they
have used information and communications technology to change the way that
teachers teach and the way that pupils learn. I think when they were set up
there were some in-built inherent problems. In nearly all areas they created
surplus places. To go back to Mr Benn's point, exactly what we feared
happened; schools withered on the vine because they did not have the
facilities and they did not have that level of capital and revenue investment.
That meant they ended up closing and we would not want that. As ever, what
we want to do is take what worked out of City Technology Colleges but match
it to what we want to do which is turn round failing and struggling schools.
645. Thank you. Could I turn to the question of the Fresh Start
initiative. Is it the Government's intention that this will be a simple
marketing ploy or is it intended to make a positive contribution to restoring
confidence in failing schools amongst the staff and indeed the parents? Does
the Minister have a view as to why three heads recently resigned from Fresh
Start initiative schools?
(Estelle Morris) It is not a marketing programme at all. It is a
genuine attempt to try and turn round schools which have probably failed for
decades. We just have to remember what these schools are. They are not the
run-of-the-mill urban school that is struggling. They are actually the most
challenging schools in this country where for almost decade after decade
children have gone there and not reached their potential. They are exactly
the schools that suffer from urban flight, the schools that often find it
difficult to recruit and retain staff. Working there is the toughest job in
schools today. I think we have to remember that. I think what happened in
the past was there was a wish to push them under the carpet and not address
these needs and what the Government has done has been very up-front and said
if we are serious about raising standards for every child in every school
including inner cities we have to do something about these failing schools as
well. The minute you say that public attention is focused on it and that is
right but let's not pretend that the school has not been quietly failing to
achieve and deliver goods for children and staff in the years before. I
thought this might be raised and I thought it might be useful to comment on
the ten that have started, three in September 1998, six in September 1999 and
one in January 2000. They were all in special measures and all the sort of
schools to which Miss McIntosh is referring. Three heads are no longer there
and I will come back to that. I thought you may be interested to know that
in each of the schools that started in the first tranche every one of them has
seen an increase in results in the five plus A*-Gs and every one of them has
seen a decrease in unauthorised absence. In Fairfield, absence is down from
6.9 to 3.2 and in the King's School down from 13.2 to 8.5. That never got the
headline and it has been in the press for five, six, seven days running. I
want to pay tribute to the staff who managed to bring about that turn round
in a short space of time. Why they failed I suspect is because sometimes we
will get it wrong. In a task as challenging as this, I suspect sometimes the
heads and teachers will take on jobs they will not want to continue for very
long or will not be able to deliver what they had hoped to be able to deliver.
Three have left. One the OFSTED report has shown she offered good leadership
and she has now gone on to another job in education. If you compare this with
the world of commerce, a struggling company will sometimes get a new boss for
18 months and they will sow the seeds and move on. I do not think it ought
to always be a sign of failure. I think governments have got a choice. We
have taken on openly a difficult task and I suspect that we will fail to turn
some of those schools around, but I would sooner do that and have an element
of success than not face up to the issue which meant that another generation
of children failed.
Mrs Dunwoody
646. With respect, the 18 month person who comes in and does a job
which enhances their career but not necessarily produce results and then moves
on is well-known. They usually end up at top of the tree before they are
found out to be incapable of doing anything. Could I point out that that is
not necessarily an advantage. What you have today set out is a series of
fragmentary projects. You appear to have a project for inner cities, you
appear to have a project for failing schools, you appear to have a project for
city technology colleges. Are we not in danger of getting ourselves into a
"pick and mix" situation and instead of education being planned as a coherent
whole, it is a series of projects that happen to be convenient and if they do
not work are abandoned?
(Estelle Morris) Can I put on the record where the head did move on
after 18 months at the Fairfield Community College the five plus A*-Gs in 1997
were 43 per cent and in 1999 ---
647. With respect, I am making a genuine point ---
(Estelle Morris) What you did say ---
648. 18 month people are well-known in public service - indeed,
dare I say it, some of them can be found in politics - where people will use
the machinery of whatever they are doing in order to promote their own careers
and then disappear.
(Estelle Morris) That might be the case. I wanted to put on record
that she chose to move on to an education action zone. What I am interested
in is what was achieved at that school while she was there. I am not
questioning her motives for having left after 18 months. I just wanted to
acknowledge that I was pleased that the five A*-Gs went up from 43 to 74 per
cent. It has not quite doubled, my maths tells me, and I am not complacent,
but in fairness to those kids and the teachers who work with them I would just
want to acknowledge that. I do think there is a danger that we suffer from
initiative-itis and although central government might see some grand master
plan if you are working there in the thick of it you do not see it as that.
I tend to think we have to work harder as a government to enable our partners
in the education service to see the initiatives as being joined together and
not separate.
649. Who are we talking about? Who are our partners?
(Estelle Morris) Teachers, governors, parents, the wider community,
local authorities. There are initiatives like Literacy and Numeracy and the
National Grid for Learning and Information and Communications Technology that
apply to every single school in this country and, if you like, there is a
baseline. What we have tried to then do is to say there is a baseline about
our education standards agenda. Because of Mr Gray's very first question
there are some schools and some children that need more than that. What we
have got is a range of initiatives that come into more than that category so
Fresh Start and City Academies are two ways of trying to tackle some of the
most difficult schools in the country. It does build on our basis. I do not
want to be complacent and I do think we need to be clear about how initiatives
fit together because if you are a hard worked teacher you do not always have
time to read newspapers to work out how they do fit together.
650. Is it not that you get fed up with fashions in education just
as you do in health or anything else?
(Estelle Morris) May I just answer that. I think this is genuinely
difficult for government. What I would want to do is learn from what works
and to some extent City Academies is trying to learn from what works in Fresh
Start. You have a choice of either saying, "We will not try to do that any
more because we got a few days bad publicity", or you try to learn from what
works. I would be really disappointed if we said, "Let's sweep that
initiative away and not do it any more." What I am pleased about is that
another announcement is saying, "This worked from it. This did not. Let's
try and improve the elements that did not work."
Miss McIntosh
651. The Secretary of State announced last week the so called
additional £60 million to "underpin the Fresh Start and City Academy
programmes ... for City Academies, we intend that the money will partner the
voluntary and private sector contributions that will be made." Is the
Government saying that none of the £60 million will be given out unless
matched funding is found? The second question is where exactly do you see
this voluntary and private sector contribution coming from and how easy do you
think it will be to tap into?
(Estelle Morris) We have not made the final decisions yet. The
Secretary of State will issue a prospectus for City Academies after Easter
inviting interested parties to work with us. We have not got a plan that the
money will then be released with matched funding. I think some of that money
will be made available for existing Fresh Start schools. So it will not all
go into inner city academies. The Secretary of State will want to announce
that in due course. We have already got many private sector sponsors who have
worked with us in education action zones and on the Specialist Schools
initiative so increasingly I think the will is there from the private sector
to work with us to raise standards. I suppose all I can say is that we have
been led to believe there will be individuals who will want to work with us.
I think I am right in saying that immediately after that announcement a
businessman who has already worked in education in the North East did announce
his willingness to work with us on City Academies when we issue the
prospectus. We have not got a formula for matched funding for that now.
652. The announcement from the businessman was to the tune of £2
million, the Government is contributing £60 million, so that leaves quite a
substantial shortfall.
(Estelle Morris) We have not announced the partners at the moment. We
announced the amount of money because that was secured in the Budget. I think
it is proper we do this in a planned way. It is about three or four weeks
until Easter and the Secretary of State will then issue a prospectus. I think
that is better than having some sort of free-for-all. Mr Vardy (?), the
gentleman from the North East we are talking about chose to make a public
statement at that point to say that he was interested. I think when the time
comes to judge the success of the invitation will be when we see who responds
to our prospectus after Easter and I am optimistic than more than Mr Vardy
will respond to it.
653. Do you not think you have done a lot of damage to inner
cities by letting the phrases "inner cities" and "failing schools" run too
often together? What are you doing to emphasise that within some of the inner
city areas there are some remarkable schools?
(Estelle Morris) I think you are absolutely right. You might have
noticed that today I have tried my best to use different words and it does not
always work. I have tended to talk about "schools in challenging areas" and
it sounds awful. I do worry about attaching "inner city" to the term "failing
schools" partly because it excludes loads of failing schools in other areas
as well and that is a real issue. I tend to use the term "under-achieving"
because I think that is better. We have got to celebrate success more than
we do. Recently I was at 10 Downing Street at a lunch time reception that
followed a seminar the Prime Minister and Secretary of State held with those
schools who have made the most progress over the last two years.
654. Even "most progress" implies something was wrong before.
(Estelle Morris) I think something was. What I would say is that if
a school, as some of these schools did, and I take the primary school in
Hackney, at key stage 2 - the figures are not necessarily absolutely accurate
- were getting 30 per cent two years and 80 and 90 per cent now, then I take
my hat off to the head and the teachers but I do draw the conclusion that two
years ago they were under-achieving.
655. But there were some schools that two years ago in those sorts
of areas that were doing extremely well, were there not?
(Estelle Morris) They were but by having an improvement indices (which
is a very rough and ready form of value added) we do try and take the
opportunity to celebrate their success. What many of the heads told me at the
reception at Downing Street last week was that that was the first time they
had been singled out for praise. Although we want to celebrate excellence and
those who get the highest results, we have had a whole range of initiatives
to celebrate improvement as well.
Dr Ladyman
656. I cannot resist asking one question about some of the
comments you made earlier about schools which you have now called schools in
challenging areas and about handling bright children. My own education
authority gives no choice. You have grammar schools and secondary moderns and
there are no comprehensives worthy of the name in the whole of Kent. When you
have schools in challenging areas in Kent they are almost always secondary
moderns and in the blink of an eye become sink schools. How does that system
deal with the problems of those sorts of schools in challenging areas?
(Estelle Morris) That is your analysis of the effect of the selective
system in Kent. Given that the Government's policy is to quite clearly leave
the future of selective education to the parents of the area, honestly, unless
I am pushed on it, I would sooner resist going down the debate on grammar
schools on this occasion.
657. I think that is a cop-out, but never mind. In the exchange
with Mrs Dunwoody earlier you have talked about various initiatives. How have
Education Action Zones helped or hindered the process of pulling those
initiatives together?
(Estelle Morris) I think they brought in extra resource. I think they
have brought in people to work in Education Action Zones who have something
to contribute. I did an Education Action Zone conference in Liverpool
recently. I have never ever been to an Education Action Zone where there has
only been teachers or educationalists - the business partners have always
turned up, the health authorities have always been there - so I think it has
genuinely enabled people from different local authority departments as well
as the private sector to work together and it has been a lever to bring in
other expertise. Another advantage is that it has been a lever for
co-operation between schools. Being a head is a lonely job and if you are a
head of a school in an inner city area, it is an even more lonely job, and one
of the comments I have had from schools in Education Action Zones is for the
first time they are beginning to share expertise. I think the fourth thing
the money has brought is new ways of doing things and even things like
breakfast clubs which I visited in a Birmingham Education Action Zone seemed
to be bringing about better attendance and better motivation for children.
The judge and jury is out on their success in raising educational standards.
OFSTED are going to evaluate that for us. I am not complacent but quietly
pleased with what I have seen on the ground, although it varies a lot between
Education Action Zones, I have to say.
658. I have to say that being a head of a secondary modern in a
challenging area where people do not even want to be in an Education Action
Zone is even lonelier but because you do not want to go down that route I will
not go there at the moment. Early results from the Education Action Zones?
Have you seen any raising of standards, any indications?
(Estelle Morris) The key stage 2 results in Education Action Zone
schools last year, if you averaged them all out, were two per cent better than
the national improvement so we were pleased with that.
659. One of the things the Urban Task Force indicated was where
there were going to be new housing developments in urban areas schools should
be opened early in the development. Have you got any views on that?
(Estelle Morris) I am not sure we have quite got that right yet and I
am pleased that that is one thing the Urban Task Force will look at because
the whole way of how we fund for new places, if we do not watch it, becomes
historical because of what is known as the January form seven count (?). When
you open a new school and you have got all the consultation on it and funding,
I know that in some areas the school comes much later than the houses. I do
not think I am knowledgeable enough about the planning process to see how that
can be improved, but I am vaguely ill at ease that we have not got our
procedures right and there does tend to be a period when it is difficult for
local authorities ---
Chairman
660. Surely, it is not the planning process, it is the money and
it is your Department that has the money?
(Estelle Morris) In that case I am not that content that we are getting
the money out quickly enough. The point I meant by the planning process was
not so much the city councils' planning departments but if a council says to
us, "We have got more people. Can we have a new school?" we do not say yes
immediately, we have to publish proposals, we have to consult, we have to
receive objections, we have to look at how it can be financed, we have to look
at value for money. There is a right and proper process but I am conscious
it is a bit lengthy.
Dr Ladyman
661. If they manage to cut through all that and get the school
built, if it is only at quarter capacity because the rest of the housing
estate is not occupied yet, the per capita funding of pupils means the school
does not have enough money. Is there some way of cutting through the planning
and some way of your Department forward funding the school?
(Estelle Morris) We would not want to commit our Department to funding
for children who were not there but there is flexibility within the local
authority SSA of 20 per cent where they could take that decision to make life
easier for the children, but I assume they do not employ the extra staff until
they have got the numbers of pupils.
662. One of the other tranches of the Urban Task Force discussed
was cross-disciplinary training in higher education in order to get
professionals different to what the previous witnesses called "silos" so they
are not all blinkered in one department. Have you any views on how we should
do that?
(Baroness Blackstone) In general, universities need to be much
more aware than perhaps they were one or two years ago of their local
environment and their local communities and they certainly have a very
important role to play, I believe, in urban regeneration. As far as the
training that they get we have to accept that most academic staff have to be
specialists because they have a particular discipline where they teach and
where they do research. I have no strong views one way or another about that
particular recommendation. It would be very much a matter for universities
to have a look at and I hope they will look at it and see what they can do.
663. Do you see any prospect of introducing into the National
Curriculum Task Force ideas, things like urban design and those type of things
to be built in?
(Baroness Blackstone) The National Curriculum applies to young
children up to the age of 16. It does not apply to post-16 education and
training. I will have to hand that one back to Estelle, the Minister
responsible for schools and I will take over for when they become 16.
(Estelle Morris) Very joined-up thinking! One of the pressures we have
on us is that every time someone produces a report they demand something extra
be put in the National Curriculum and talking about new initiatives and making
life difficult for teachers the worst thing we would want to do is that. In
terms of geography and the humanities curriculum we could look to see where
those openings are. We are trying to look at the Department being less
prescriptive, not more, about the National Curriculum and indeed we have
introduced more flexibility at key stage 4.
664. What about the regional resource centres? I do not know
which side of the fence this comes in in joined-up government terms.
(Baroness Blackstone) Again I think the RDAs are very
important in this particular area. I think there is scope for looking at
regional resource centres perhaps in association with RDAs in so far as they
are concerned with economic development. It is also the case that there is
much more interaction now in higher education between higher education
institutions in a particular region. There was a time when they really did
operate as single autonomous institutions with not a lot of contact with other
institutions in their own areas. That is really changing now. They meet as
a group and look at the particular needs of the region where they are located,
and also there is also much more cross discussion between further education
colleges and universities within particular regions.
Mr Stevenson
665. Schools and higher and further education establishments are
seen as a community resource really, which is right and proper, but is the
reality not that a lot of that resource is not used outside of school hours
particularly in urban areas? A) would you accept that as a proposition and
B) what do you think ought to be done to bring into use those facilities for
the communities outside of the formal hours?
(Baroness Blackstone) I am very very strongly in favour of
this happening. We have to, of course, take into account that there has been
a very big change in the composition of the student body in both further
education colleges and in universities and higher education institutions
because we have moved from a situation where the vast majority were full-time
students 16 to 19 year olds in FE, 18 to 22 year olds approximately in
universities to a situation where half our students in universities are now
mature students and around a third of them study part time. This means that
universities have opened up teaching in the evenings and at the weekends in
a way they did not do 20 years ago. Similarly, there has been an enormous
expansion in opportunities for adult learning, lifelong learning in our FE
colleges which again means they cannot shut up shop at half past five in the
evening, they use the facilities until quite late. I would like to see even
more of that. I would like to see more opportunities at the weekends for
people to come in and study. Again with the use of things like PCs, computers
that is all happening. That does not mean to say there is not scope for ---
666. I can understand that. I was thinking more in terms of
leisure and recreational activities. I suspect there is not a Member round
this table or any ten councillors you would wish to speak to who does not get
criticism from constituents that there are no leisure facilities and yet you
can look up the street and see tennis courts, netball facilities, football
pitches not used, which is an important issue and one identified by the Task
Force. It is in that context as well as the others that I think I would
direct my question.
(Estelle Morris) I could draw attention to a number of initiatives
where we want to do that because I think you are right. The reason it is not
is simple things like caretaking costs, lighting and heating costs of schools,
and they simply have not felt they can afford to stay open or they have to
charge costs which makes it difficult for local people. There are ways in
which we are trying to move towards that. In the Specialist Schools programme
you will be aware we developed a community aspect and resourced that
accordingly. Now every single specialist school in the country has to have
a programme for working with the community and working with neighbouring
schools. We have got, I think, just below or just above 100 sports
specialists schools so in those schools facilities will be open to the
community. One more initiative where that has been a prerequisite is in the
inner city learning centres (which are part of the Excellence in Cities
programmes) which are attached to schools where a prime requirement is that
they are open 15 hours a day for the wider community. When we put extra money
into developing new initiatives we try to build in the fact that schools
should be open.
667. In terms of education development plans, which presumably are
preoccupied with educational issues, and also other plans that local
authorities develop, are you satisfied that there is the necessary joined-up
thinking between those different elements of a local authority on this issue
of how we bring into more effective use these enormous facilities that are
available throughout the country in schools and further education colleges
which at the moment are being either under-utilised outside of schools hours
or not utilised at all? Are you satisfied that there is strategic thinking
both at local and national level?
(Estelle Morris) No, probably not. I think it could be done better and
I know the Government is working as an interdepartmental committee to look at
those initiatives. Some things are quite simple, things like boundaries do
not match up and different bits of local authorities and government do not
even talk to each other about that. There is the potential to use facilities
in the way you have outlined if we can get some joined-up thinking. There is
an awful lot of planning required of local authorities and I would like to
think we had some rationalisation of that so that we could co-ordinate that
better.
(Baroness Blackstone) Can I add a word on the post-16 side of
all this. Clearly there is provision here that probably could be opened up
and greater community use made of it. We have set up and established local
learning partnerships and they involve all the different players in this
including local authorities who (apart from sixth forms) are not responsible
for post-16 provision with the exception of some adult and community learning.
I think there is scope for those partnerships to look at this issue and
certainly this is something I would like to take back and see if we can
encourage them to take it on board.
Chairman
668. I think we were warned you wanted to go at 12 o'clock. I
hope we can pinch five minutes of your time.
(Estelle Morris) I am happy with five minutes.
Mr Stevenson
669. I have one question and I shall be fairly quick. It has been
suggested that many areas particularly in the Midlands and North have been
successful in attracting students, I often feel the education students, but
perhaps also evidence suggests that they are not very good at retaining them
in many ways. What do you think ought to be done to make it more attractive
for the economically successfully or newly qualified to make their future and
to stay in the Midlands and North rather than migrating elsewhere?
(Baroness Blackstone) Of course in the end students when they
graduate will make their decisions in terms of where they see the economic
advantage, where they see the jobs that are going to be fulfilling and going
to provide them with a good career, but I do think it is important that
universities have more contact with local employers both in the public sector
and the private sector and that is something we have been encouraging and it
is something that is taking place. We are also looking at trying to improve
work experience for young people while they are studying so that they combine
their study as full-time students with some work experience which in most
cases ought to be in a company, in a firm, in a public sector employer in the
area where the university is located. If that experience is a good one, some
of those young people may well stay on. I think it is that kind of scheme.
We are trying to develop what we call graduate apprenticeships which are being
piloted at the moment, and if those pilots work we will develop them further
and that again ought to help.
670. What sort of timescale are you talking about?
(Baroness Blackstone) We are piloting them over the current
two years, this year and next year, and then we will look at how they work and
see how we can expand them.
Mr Forsythe
671. Minister, there will be many fewer Skills Councils than
Training and Education Councils. You tell us that they will be responsive to
local needs but will they not be too large and remote to do that?
(Baroness Blackstone) I did not quite catch that. The local
Skills Councils? We do not believe they will be. What we have done is look
at travel-to-work type and look at the economic area of these particular
communities to see whether it is cohesive and coherent and makes sense.
Having 47 of them in England I think means that they are about the right size.
They cannot be too small given that they are, after all, trying to relate to
local economies, and not tiny micro local economies. So of course the proof
will be in the pudding. The second reading of the Bill to set them up is in
the House of Commons tomorrow. We will certainly want to monitor them from
this point of view but we think 47 is about the right number.
672. There has been criticism that they will be more centrally
controlled than the TECs. Do you not think they would have less flexibility
than the TECs?
(Baroness Blackstone) We do not think so. The TECs - there
were 72 of them - tended, I think, to create a pattern of provision which was
very often difficult for users to get a grip on. Some users had to relate to
perhaps three or four different TECs all with rather different kinds of
systems, all with slightly different cost arrangements in terms of charging.
I think that having a more coherent system which covers both college-based
learning and work-based learning will be a very big improvement, and there
will be local flexibility. Between 10 and 15 per cent of their funding will
be available for the Learning Skills Councils to spend as they think fit for
their particular local needs. So I do not believe it will be too top down,
but I do think it will be much more coherent than it has been in the past.
673. If the Regional Development Agencies are responsible for
improving the economic competitiveness - and skills are, of course, crucial
for this - should the RDAs be responsible for skills, and will there by co-
operation between the Regional Development Agencies and the Skills Councils?
(Baroness Blackstone) No, the RDAs are not responsible for
delivering education and training, but there will be a lot of contact and co-
operation between the National Skills Councils, the Learning Skills Councils
and the local ones. The RDAs' role here, I think, is to provide information,
both nationally and locally, about what the particular needs are in a region,
in the context of their proposals and plans for economic development.
Chairman
674. Basically, you did not trust the RDAs, did you, otherwise you
could have given the RDAs the skills training function, but you did not trust
them?
(Baroness Blackstone) The RDAs were set up basically to
provide for improvements in the economic development of the regions, they were
never set up as education and training providers. It is not a matter of
trust, it is a matter of what they were set up to do. Also I think the
criticism which Mr Forsythe was perhaps implying when he thought that we might
not have enough LSEs locally would certainly apply here if you had handed more
of this task over to the RDAs, because they cover huge areas and I do not
really think they would have been able to have the kind of relationship with
local providers that is necessary.
675. So you do trust the Regional Development Agencies?
(Baroness Blackstone) Of course, to do the job they have been
set up to do, but not to do a completely different job for which I do not
think they have been set up.
Miss Anne McIntosh
676. I wonder if I could ask Baroness Blackstone this question.
Clearly we are in an interim situation at the moment where the TECs know that
they are being wound down. I am particularly concerned about the staff being
demoralised this autumn when, for the reasons Clifford has said, there are
going to be fewer people employed by them and they are all going to be chasing
each other's jobs. How do you propose to keep staff morale up in delivering
the programmes which have been promised to be delivered by the TECs, until
such time as the Learning Skills Councils come into effect next year?
(Baroness Blackstone) We are very conscious of the
difficulties which this kind of structural change always poses for people who
are working in particular organisations which are not going to survive.
677. We are talking about unemployment.
(Baroness Blackstone) That, of course, is true not only of the
TECs but also of the Further Education Funding Council and the Further
Education Funding Council's regional structure too. We are determined that
we will, as soon as the Bill has made a little more progress, get ahead with
making appointments, so that people are not going to be left until the last
minute unsure what their future is going to be. I am not quite sure whether
you are right in implying that large numbers of people will lose their jobs.
The structure which we are setting up is a very big and complex one; it is
going to be disbursing œ6 billion of public money. I would suggest that the
majority of people who are currently employed in the two different strands -
in the TEC work-based strand on the one hand and the colleges/FSE structure
on the other - if they want to continue, are likely to be able to get a job.
Some of them may not want to. Some of them may, of course, have problems in
moving house or travelling further than a short distance from their homes.
The arrangements are now in the process of being planned, to make sure that
people are well aware of what their job opportunities will be and are very
quickly given job offers once we have the new LSEs in place.
Chairman
678. Very briefly, as we only have a few seconds left, can we talk
about children playing? Can much more be done to make cities attractive
places for children to play in and enjoy life?
(Estelle Morris) I think that children's play is important both for
leisure and for learning. I would hope that, for instance, when we build more
schools, when we refurbish schools, play is part of school activity and the
one thing which we would take into account. I think it is very much part of
the early years' curriculum, if that was the point of that particular
question.
Chairman: I think we must leave it at that. Thank you very much for
your evidence.
