Examination of Witnesses (Questions 440
- 459)
THURSDAY 16 MARCH 2000
THE RT
HON ROBIN
COOK, MR
EMYR JONES
PARRY AND
MR BRIAN
DONNELLY, CMG
Chairman
440. One final one on this. Foreign Secretary,
do you think that the eventual capitulation of Milosevic was due
in part to a presumption, an assumption that the Russians would
have a partition as part of Kosovo?
(Mr Cook) No. No, I do not think that. I think it
may have partly been prompted by the fact that Russian did not
provide him with the support that he had perpetually led people
to believe would be coming from Russia. Remember his brother is
the Serbian Ambassador to Moscow and they had always held out
to the people of Serbia the prospect that Russia would arrive
as the seventh cavalry. It became increasing apparent to him that
they were not going to do so either in terms of the presence of
military support or indeed of substantial economic and supply
support. Other factors I think that weighed with them, first of
all, it became plain to him that our resolve was much greater
than he had anticipated.
441. Sticking together.
(Mr Cook) He always knew that we had the greater military
force but he was bargaining on the idea that he would have the
greater ruthlessness and determination. I think the third element
was his indictment by the War Crimes Tribunal which was deeply
demoralising to him and to those around him.
Chairman: We want to spend the bulk of the session
on the peace, Mr Mackinlay.
Mr Mackinlay
442. Can I just say that I do think, speaking
for myself, it was probably one of the most important visits we
made as a Foreign Affairs Select Committee and my abiding memory,
and I suspect of my colleagues, is of two occasions. One was when
we stood by the graves where bodies had been reinterred and saw
the half filled graves where there were polythene bags placed
with clothes in in order that people could subsequently identify
what loved ones were in those graves. Secondly, by chance, the
fact that we were delayed at Pristina and the RAF—so it
was unrehearsed—flew us to Skopje and we saw village after
village and house after house which had been gutted. Certainly
I think that is what many of us will remember for a long, long
time. Foreign Secretary, I want to really ask you four questions
and the one on which certainly I know my colleagues want to come
in on I will leave to the end, so that is the question of policing,
the whole question of justice and law order. There are a couple
of other points I want to ask you about. The possibility of a
constituent assembly and also the question of missing persons
and people who are incarcerated in Belgrade. If I can just pick
up on a rather isolated point. In a memorandum which the Select
Committee have been given by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office,
headed EU and UN policy implications, paragraph six refers
to the fact that we are—
(Mr Cook) Could you hold on until I get there.
443. I do apologise. This is KOS 23d.
(Mr Cook) What paragraph?
444. Paragraph six. Bearing in mind our inquiry
really is looking to the future of the Balkans region. You rightly
say that "The UK is also actively pursuing WTO membership
. . ." amongst many other things as a way of bringing the
countries of this region into the Euro Atlantic fraternity. Recently
you met the new Prime Minister of Croatia.
(Mr Cook) Yes.
445. He would have raised with you, would he
not, the frustration his country is feeling having been caught
in a sandwich between France, I think in particular, and the United
States which will not let his country join the WTO, for no other
reason other than the fact that there is a trade war on certain
matters between those two countries and, I suppose implicitly,
the EU. What can you do to break this absurd deadlock, bearing
in mind the unlocking function that Croatia could bring to this
entire region if it was encouraged and coaxed into EU, etc, and
WTO?
(Mr Cook) I absolutely agree with you, the very powerful
seismic forces that Croatia can unleash across the region by the
force of example. We now have in Croatia a Government which in
one election has taken the country from the 19th century to the
21st century. It is embarked on part an economic reform and is
honouring its international obligations on refugees and war criminals.
I found Monday's visit very exciting and inspiring. The WTO is
one of the issues that we did discuss, and our policy position
is that we strongly support WTO membership for Croatia provided
we can get the issues right. The one issue that has caused problems
with negotiations is of the terms of Croatia's acceptance of the
proper requirements of audio visual training. Frankly, I think
Croatia's offer is a perfectly fair and a sensible offer, it also
matches the terms on which the Baltic States were admitted to
the WTO. We see no reason why Croatia should be required to go
further. You are correct, the United States is currently blocking
it because it wants it to go further. This matter we have discussed
with our United States partners and I will continue to press them
to recognise that it is a fair and a reasonable and in any case
for strategic reasons we should be encouraging Croatia to get
into the WTO.
Mr Mackinlay
446. Missing persons. We met people in Kosovo
who said they believed there were up to 12,000 people in Serb
prisons, approximately 2,000 people had undergone some form of
trial, there was another 2,000 or 3,000 who the Serbs had admitted
they had incarcerated, so that was not an issue, there was also
a big gap between the Serb admission and what was the understanding
of the people in Kosovo. It would be interesting to know or if
you can supply the breakdown of figures of what our assessment
is of these people. The second point is, when we had the armistice,
which is the best way of referring to it, why did we not press
for an immediate return of these people? Many of these have gone
under trial, which were wholly botched-up political trials, in
very distressing circumstances for people, including doctors,
who helped KLA and so on. Why did we not make that a condition
of the armistice and what hope can you afford to people who have
loved ones who are trapped politically in prison in Belgrade and/or
lost?
(Mr Cook) On your point about the conditions of the
ceasefire, to be candid, if they were left out of the conditions,
the fact is none of us had any real idea of the scale of the problem
until we got on the ground there. In fairness, most of our observation
was aerial and we were not aware of those who were removed and,
indeed, a number were removed in the last few days of the VJ presence,
after the ceasefire was agreed. The numbers reported are higher
than the numbers I recognise. None of us really know. We believe
500 have been returned from Serbia but at least another 1,600
remain. I really cannot put my hand on my heart and say these
are figures to which I can attach any great accuracy. We will,
of course, continue to press for those who have been removed from
Kosovo to be returned or, if there are bona fide criminal
charges against them, for those charges to the brought forward.
Can I just echo one of the issues we should bear in mind when
we think about the grief, pain and bitterness is that there are
literally hundreds of families across Kosovo who will never know
what happened to their loved ones?
Mr Mackinlay: Constituent Assembly. You have
local government elections and roles are being prepared. Everyone
recognises that the roles will not be the most sophisticated in
the world but we can have elections for local authorities, is
there not a powerful case to bring people into, albeit a very
embryonic, Parliamentarism, to have a constituent assembly with
special arrangements for Serb and other minorities, rather like
we have done in the past in respect of Northern Ireland, literally
to get people with some status of turning, even if they might
boycott it initially, and so on, just to get people within the
frame? Is there not a case for a representative assembly which
we would return to?
Chairman
447. Perhaps I can give you time to think of
a good answer to that.
(Mr Cook) I can quickly respond to that point, then
we can continue when we return. First of all, we are keen to get
on with a democratic process. We want that to start at a local
level, we think that is the right level, and also that will enable
local communities to take control of their local public services,
health and education and economic stimulus. That will be quite
creative in terms of the politics of Kosovo by giving the them
accountability and responsibility for the real quality of life
of their people. In the fullness of time what you raise is something
that should be addressed and, of course, the Rambouillet peace
process did envisage such an assembly with remarkable over-generous
representation for the Serb population, and had the Serb side
accepted Rambouillet they would be in a much better position now.
The Committee suspended from 4.01 p.m. to4.13
p.m. for a division in the House.
Chairman: Dr Godman is following up the question
from Mr Mackinlay.
Dr Godman
448. Very, very quickly. My question is prompted
by the comments Andrew made about people incarcerated in Serb
prisons. Can he confirm now, or, if he cannot, if he will, that
the International Red Cross and its representatives have unhindered
access to prisoners in Serbia in order to determine what is happening
to these people?
(Mr Cook) I suspect the answer is no but I am open
to advice from either of my colleagues.
(Mr Donnelly) The ICRC are visiting those prisoners
they know about. That may be a different thing from whether they
are being able to visit all of the people being held in Serbia.
That is only half an answer to your question. They are getting
access but whether it is free, unhindered and as open as they
would like, I would not be sure.
449. Can you check this out for me?
(Mr Donnelly) I certainly will.
Chairman
450. Will you write to the Committee in respect
of the number of people and the access?
(Mr Cook) I will happily write to the Committee.
451. What information you have available.
(Mr Cook) I will absolutely share with you all we
know but, I have to be frank, we may not get near the numbers.
452. That is all we can ask for.
(Mr Cook) Can I go over the numbers of the financial
costs which I was asked about earlier?
453. Yes.
(Mr Cook) I can only share with you the costs to the
UK because, frankly, we cannot speak authoritatively of the cost
to other countries. In the course of expenditure during the crisis
from March until June the total spending additional cost to the
UK was £90 million, of which almost exactly half were defence
related MoD costs, the great bulk of the balance was the DfID
aid for the refugees and our contribution to the European Union
aid for the refugees and humanitarian crisis. The cost to June
1999 was £90 million, half defence, half humanitarian. In
the year since June 1999 the total costs to the UK of peacekeeping
and our contribution to reconstruction is £475 million. Of
that, £370 million is the cost of our contribution to KFOR
but the balance is our contribution to UNMIK and the reconstruction
effort. That balance is twice as large as we spent on defence
related expenditure.
454. If there are comparative costs with the
US on both sides, that would be helpful.
(Mr Cook) I think we might have difficulty in finding
published figures for the US.
Chairman: If they are available.
Mr Illsley
455. Just to press the point that Mr Mackinlay
made on the constituent assembly. As you know, many of the former
personalities within the KLA are now seeking political positions,
together with the existing politicians, some of whom we met during
our visit and most of whom, nearly all, called for an independent
Kosovo. Bearing in mind that this is not the wish of the British
Government at the moment, but bearing in mind there is this call
amongst the present candidates, if you like, for independence
and given that a constituent assembly will focus that call even
further, do you have any view on that or do you think that a constituent
assembly will increase that call for independence at a time when
really it is not feasible?
(Mr Cook) First of all, I hope I indicated in replying
to Andrew's point that we are not committed to a constituent assembly.
The commitment at the present time is for elections to local and
municipal authorities. Frankly I think that is going to be a difficult
enough task to organise and to get under way and to hold on a
free and fair basis before we start thinking about anything wider
of a province wide character. What you highlight is a serious
issue for the future and that is at the present time, as the Committee
has discovered, nearly everybody inside Kosovo wants independence
and absolutely everybody outside Kosovo does not want independence
for Kosovo. That does not simply include remote countries who
happen to be influential in the Security Council, such as Britain
or Russia, it includes all the contiguous neighbours. Macedonia
is deeply alarmed at the prospect of an independent Kosovo and
sees it as very undermining to its own status. In Bosnia it would
be a very serious reverse of the Dayton process if there was an
independent Kosovo. There are very serious problems to be addressed
as we go towards the future. For myself, I do think that there
are creative and imaginative ways of resolving this and in the
modern world lots of different models have been found by which
sovereignty has been maintained whilst de facto self-government
has been created. I do not actually think that we will be able
to get that kind of creative and imaginative thinking in Kosovo
while Milosevic is still in Belgrade. Frankly, I think this is
an issue that will be easier to resolve if there is a democratic
transition in Serbia of the kind that I have just witnessed in
Croatia.
456. Do you think UNMIK's role is clearly enough
defined in Kosovo at the moment? That was one of the things that
was related to us, that one or two people thought that UNMIK did
not have a clear view as to the future strategy. Along the same
lines as calling for independence there was this fear that perhaps
UNMIK did not really have a clear enough rule further into the
future.
(Mr Cook) It is very difficult to see how the international
community broadly can take a view one way or the other on this
question because it is something that will have to be resolved
through a political process. That is clearly set out in resolution
1244, which is the mandate for UNMIK, it is very clear as a mandate,
but on the long-term status of Kosovo it does charge UNMIK with
starting a political process to resolve it. It is very hard to
see how UNMIK or anybody else can start such a political process
which would necessarily have some dialogue and involvement with
Belgrade whilst Belgrade is led by an indicted war criminal.
Chairman: Thank you very much. There is now
a Kosovo Transitional Council composed of 40-odd people with rather
limited terms of reference. Given that independence is out for
the foreseeable future, and that is the wish of all the Kosovar
Albanian parties, do you have any views on the lines that at the
same time as the local elections in September or whatever, there
should also be elections for this Transitional Council which,
since it has limited terms of reference, would not be deemed so
dependent and would—
Mr Mackinlay: A lightning rod.
Chairman
457. At least move towards the removal of part
of the democratic deficit.
(Mr Cook) I am not sure that I would wish to stand
next to the lightning rod though. First of all, I think the task
should be to make sure that we do create some form of responsibility
within the Kosovar Albanian community. The place to start is with
municipal local authorities who can be seen to be clearly accountable
to local people for local services and the quality of local life.
458. You would not rule out elections to the
Transitional Council?
(Mr Cook) I am not ruling anything out. The Transitional
Council is essentially consultative. I am not sure that I would
be enthusiastic in the immediate future of elections to a body
which did not itself have responsibility because that seems to
me to run the risk that you end up with a body that because it
is not responsible for what is happening in Kosovo does not itself
have to be realistic in what it demands.
Mr Rowlands
459. May I say that I think I share your view
rather than my colleague's view on this. What struck me most forcefully
when we went to Glamoc was the utter bitterness and unbelievable
feeling almost of vengeance that ran through the community. When
you heard their experiences it was most understandable. We are
not talking about months, we are talking about a very considerable
period of time before those memories are going to dim to say the
least. You mentioned the role possibly of the Archbishop and I
kept on putting the Archbishop's name to the many Albanian contacts
we made and all of them shook their heads in equal disbelief.
They do not believe that the Serb Orthodox church in Kosovo is
a moderating force at all, in fact one or two allegations were
made that they called on Milosevic but Milosevic would not go
far enough. What evidence have you got to suggest that there is,
in fact, a moderate Serb opinion that Kosovar Albanians will see
as being more assertive in any foreseeable timescale that we are
talking about?
(Mr Cook) Let me come back to Bishop Artemije and
the Kosovar Albanian perception. I am very glad that the Committee
had the opportunity to visit Kosovo and those who go there do
find it has a powerful impact on them. Like members of the Committee
I went to one of the war crime sites which had been at that time
investigated by British police. I saw the 30 corpses gunned down
in two very small rooms. I met some of the local residents. I
met a woman weeping and saying, "What will happen to their
orphans?" It is impossible to say to the people, "It
is all over now, tomorrow you wake up, forget it and get on with
a life of tolerance and good neighbourliness." It is going
to take a long time before at the human level any form of reconciliation
can actually be effected. Therefore, I must say, I do get impatient
with those writing from a distant perspective who are unrealistic
and glib about how easy it is to rebuild that spirit of ethnic
tolerance. In terms of the Serb community there are perfectly
fair criticisms of what members of the Serb community may have
done or may have failed to do during the atrocities. I understand
that that very largely colours the attitude of the Kosovar Albanians.
At the same time there is a discernable difference of view among
the Serbs within Kosovo primarily between those who are what one
might describe "indigenous" Kosovar Serbs who have been
there for a long period of time, which tend to include figures
who are senior in the Church, and those who came in 1989 or thereabouts
as part of the colonial administration of Belgrade and were among
the first to leave as the VJ were withdrawing. Many of those Serbs
who are themselves natives of Kosovo do feel that Belgrade has
let them down in that they were used as pawns by Milosevic for
his own struggle for national opinion back in Serbia and that
the conduct of Milosevic's policy towards Kosovo was most certainly
not geared to the interests of the Serbs who actually lived in
Kosovo.
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