Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
TUESDAY 28 MARCH 2000
MR KEITH
VAZ, MP AND
MR MARK
LYALL GRANT
80. That can mean a lot.
(Mr Vaz) Right. It is pro reform, also. We believe
very firmly that in pursuing our European agenda, at the heart
of our European agenda is obviously working with countries within
the European Union but also defending Britain's national interest.
When you say we would not have an IGC if there had not been a
move for enlargement, which is repeating my words, I say yes but
I say, also, that the need for reform is always ever present in
our minds. Reform does not mean integration and closer co-operation.
Reform means looking at the way in which the EU does its work
and making sure it is done more efficiently and more effectively
and that it is related better to the people of the United Kingdom.
This has not happened and therefore as part of the IGC agenda
one must look at the parallel activities that are going on, the
Charter of Rights that is being discussed and at the same time
the reforms being put forward by Mr Prodi and Mr Kinnock. At the
end of the day can we get ever closer? We want to get closer to
our European colleagues because we believe that the Single Market
has been a tremendous success. Being close to them means Britain's
agenda is respected and followed as in Lisbon which was an astonishingly
successful conference as far as we were concerned, the whole economic
agenda being transformed by 15 countries determined to see a new
economic model. All these are ways in which not just Britain has
benefited by change but also the rest of Europe benefits.
81. We will have to keep active to keep the
show on the road.
(Mr Vaz) Absolutely.
82. Some people say the European Union is like
a bicycle; if you stop peddling it will all fall down. I take
the gist of your views. Can I just ask about timing. Whatever
agreement is reached at the summit in Nice there will have to
be legislation in this House. The Government would not want to
be accused of being hesitant so I assume in January 2001 the Government
would move straight to legislation on what had been agreed at
the Nice summit.
(Mr Vaz) At the risk of being corrected by Mr Mackinay
on these procedural matters, we will want to make sure that we
proceed as quickly as possible. I do not have control of the legislative
programme so I cannot tell you now, Sir David, that legislation
is going to be before the House in January. I do not think anybody
knows but I can tell you this: we have taken the lead on enlargement.
The Prime Minister has been behind the enlargement. He has been
the prime mover in Europe. We will move as quickly and as swiftly
as we possibly can to make sure that we do our bit, conscious
that there are countries outside waiting for this process to be
completed before they can join.
83. The Government has to move quite quickly
or some people might say, "There goes Britain again being
half-hearted", and the Government would not want that.
(Mr Vaz) I am sure that we will move as swiftly as
we possibly can. No one can say that we are half hearted on enlargement.
84. You have not got the problems that other
parliaments have because this Parliament has still got two and
a quarter years to run.
(Mr Vaz) If we have got as much as time as that, Sir
David—
Sir David Madel: In theory.
Dr Starkey
85. You mentioned a European Charter of Fundamental
Rights. You are on record in a written answer as saying we, I
take it the Government, do not therefore favour the Charter's
incorporation into treaties. What do you see as the purpose of
the Charter of Fundamental Rights?
(Mr Vaz) I thought you were going raise this question,
Dr Starkey. The Charter of Fundamental Rights is a very important
opportunity for the European Union to set out clearly the rights
and responsibilities of its citizens. As you know, the Charter
of Rights process is a parallel process. It is formed in a sense
outside the structures of the European Union. The Prime Minister
and indeed Parliament has a representative through Mr Win Griffiths
and Lord Bowness is also represented on the Charter drafting committee.
At the end of the day we will have in one document a clear and
concise list of the rights that we enjoy as European Union citizens.
86. Can you explain how that relates to the
European Convention on Human Rights?
(Mr Vaz) It does relate to it and there will be an
overlap because the European Convention does confer rights. As
you know, the European Union is not a signatory to the European
Convention but individual countries are, so there will be an overlap.
They should be seen in a sense together. What the Charter will
not be doing is to be giving out new rights to people, rights
that they do not have at the moment. I think we have a pretty
sufficient list of rights already without the need to add anything
more.
87. Can I just clarify, does the Charter of
Fundamental Rights contain any rights that European citizens are
not already guaranteed through their individual states signing
up to the European Convention on Human Rights?
(Mr Vaz) Yes, it will have some rights that are not
in the European Convention.
88. Such as what?
(Mr Vaz) I cannot tell you now this minute the list
of those rights they do have there but I can tell you what it
will do is to codify the rights that exist already. They will
not be trying in any way to impose new rights. It is a showcase
of rights for the people of Europe and it will give people the
opportunity to look at this declaration. I think what Lord Goldsmith,
the Prime Minister's representative, has suggested is a document
which sets out clearly what your rights are, a two-part document
in a sense, and the second part talks about the sources of those
rights. That is why it is important to do that.
89. This Government effectively incorporated
the European Convention on Human Rights into our law so that individual
citizens could seek redress within our own courts. Are there proposals
to do the same with the Charter of Fundamental Rights if it contains
additional rights that are not within the European Convention?
If there are no such proposals, how are individual citizens who
believe their rights under the Charter of Fundamental Rights have
been abused to seek redress?
(Mr Vaz) In the way that they do now. It is not a
new piece of legislation that will give people new rights. If
you have a right that is not conferred by ECHR but conferred in
some other way as a citizen of the European Union, you will be
able to use your redress.
Chairman
90. In what way will you be able to seek redress
if you cannot do so through the European Convention or through
our own courts?
(Mr Vaz) Chairman, far be it for me to say this in
the presence of such a distinguished lawyer, but the fact is that
if you have already these existing rights what we are not suggesting
is that you should have a new court or new method by which they
should be enforced.
Mr Mackinlay
91. If you check the record tomorrow you will
find that you said there could be some rights over and above the
European Convention. That is what you said.
(Mr Vaz) Over and above what people already have,
not over and above what the Charter drafting committee are going
to give people.[1]
There are no new rights contained in the Charter of Rights. It
is a declaration of existing rights and one should not get carried
away with thinking somehow this is a new set of rights to be enforceable.
If you check the record that is exactly what I said. If the only
rights contained in the Charter were existing rights contained
in the European Convention on Human Rights there would be no point
in having it.
92. Presumably you or the Government would envisage,
if this comes about, this being something which lawyers could
advance in their arguments in advancing a case or appeal where
there has been a remedy sought in relation to rights denied under
the European Convention?
(Mr Vaz) No, with respect to the Chairman and others,
we are not intending to produce a Charter of Rights in order to
assist lawyers in amassing more fees. We are producing here a
declaration of existing rights, not new rights.
93. I do not mean this facetiously but apart
from it being a nice poster with doves on it, which no doubt will
get to Storey Gate somehow or another, what purpose will it serve
if it is not appealable? Let us be blunt about this. Is it the
British Government going along with this because they want to
resist it for wider reasons perhaps, but their intention is that
it is not going to amount to a ha'penny worth of beans, is it?
(Mr Vaz) Mr Mackinlay, with the greatest respect,
that is your interpretation of it. The interpretation of the Council
of Ministers was that it was important that we should have a document
that contained the body of rights that people have. Whether the
poster has doves on it is, I think, a little premature because
we are still within the process of discussing the format of the
way in which the Charter is to be worked on. What the Charter
will not do, I can assure the Committee, is confer any new rights
that do not exist and that is why a declaration is important.
People often accuse the European Union of not being able to communicate
effectively with its citizens. I believe this is an important
way we can remind citizens of what they get from being members
of the European Union.
94. So it is like when you and I were candidates,
we signed the European Social Chapter poster which we got from
Storey Gate, that one?
(Mr Vaz) I cannot remember that far back, Mr Mackinlay.
It is such a long time ago.
95. I have to say I remember when I knew Ministers
who were Members of the Common Market Safeguards Campaign but
that was a long time ago.
(Mr Vaz) I think I have a bit of amnesia.
96. I understand that. Just a small point, if
I may, you said that Win Griffiths and another colleague represent
this Parliament. Who appointed them?
(Mr Vaz) By Parliaments, by the Speakers, by the Lord
Chancellor and by the Speaker of the House of Commons.
Chairman: Now, Dr Starkey is continuing a line
of questioning and then Mr Wilshire on the same point.
Dr Starkey
97. To follow up on that, do they report back
or consult in any way?
(Mr Vaz) Indeed they do report back. Only a fortnight
ago I held a meeting which enabled Members of Parliament to come
and talk to the representatives. Lord Goldsmith and I will be
giving evidence to the House of Lords Scrutiny Committee, and
there have been debates in Parliament on this. In fact, I encourage
people to write to the Prime Minister's personal representative
and to the representative of the House. They need to seek opportunities
to be able to report back to Parliament on these matters. Certainly,
we will report back as Ministers once the decisions have been
taken.
98. Finally, to close this line of questioning
which I have been pursuing, your view is effectively that this
European Charter of Fundamental Rights tabulates, it codifies
the rights that are already pre-existing, some of which are also
covered by the European Convention on Human Rights but they are
conditional rights. Is that simply your view or is that the view
of all the Member States within the European Union?
(Mr Vaz) It is the view of the Member States as expressed
to me. Obviously there is a drafting committee which is going
on and the drafting committee will look at ways in which the views
of the Council, which established the idea of the Charter, are
put into practice. There is no huge appetite, I do not think,
about conferring new rights on people. I think there is an understanding
of what we want to achieve.
Mr Wilshire
99. There are two things I want to get absolutely
clear in my mind about this. I have been listening very carefully
and the score is currently 3-all in what I have noted. The score
is 3-all to saying "no, there will be no new rights"
which I think I heard the Minister say three times, and it will
appear in the record tomorrow, but I have heard him now also say
or agree three times "yes it will result in us having rights
that we do not currently have".
(Mr Vaz) No.
Mr Wilshire: The record will either say that
or it will not. I wrote down two comments that the Minister made
very early on. He said "no new rights" and then he said
"yes there will be rights for EU citizens that they do not
have at the moment". The record will bear that out.
Dr Starkey: That they do not have at the moment.
1 Note by witness: for clarification, please
delete this sentence. Back
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