Select Committee on Foreign Affairs Minutes of Evidence



Examination of witnesses (Questions 80 - 99)

TUESDAY 18 APRIL 2000

MR PETER HAIN and MS FRANCES MACLEOD

Chairman

  80. It is the interests of Zimbabwe to have their skills.
  (Mr Hain) It is very much in the interests of Zimbabwe to have their skills. One of the most disturbing and saddening features of the current farm invasions is that those skills are not being able to be deployed, as a result of which the country is being hurt.

Mr Rowlands

  81. May I seek clarification on these numbers, 14,500 are registered as British nationals with the High Commission and therefore either have British passports or would be issued with them on request; that is right?
  (Mr Hain) That is right.

  82. You think there may be another 5,500 who may qualify as well, if you talk about the figure of 20,000?
  (Mr Hain) Yes, that is our best estimate.

  83. British citizenship is very clearly and narrowly defined?
  (Mr Hain) Indeed. You cannot be certain until an individual presents him or herself at the High Commission and that can be established.

  84. Of those 14,500 who registered how many are farmers as opposed to people who lived in what was Rhodesia, and now Zimbabwe, retired pensioners, ex-public service workers and others, who may not be directly effected by the present conflict?
  (Mr Hain) I do not have figures on that. I am happy to establish those figures, if I am able to, and provide them to the Committee in writing.

  85. It would important to clarify, would it not, between those who by the terrible circumstances of the last few weeks may be forced to leave as opposed to those who may feel they are forced because they lived not as farmers but as citizens in Zimbabwe.
  (Mr Hain) Yes, indeed. Although I respect your focus on this problem, because it could ultimately be an issue for Britain, I want to stress that everything that is said or done at the present time must concentrate on the rights of those people to stay in Zimbabwe, as they wish to do.

  86. One further clarification on the issue of citizenship, is it the case that any Commonwealth citizen who has a parent born in the United Kingdom has the right to a vote in the United Kingdom?
  (Mr Hain) The detail of those matters is a matter obviously for the Home Office. Can I make one other point, I will happily return to it, if you wish, in some cases many of these individuals will go to other countries. Some have already gone to South Africa, some of their children have gone to the South Africa. Australia, New Zealand and Canada are also countries that they tend to move to. I do not think you should anticipate what may happen.

  87. You have repeatedly said throughout your evidence this morning that you wanted a measured response. You also, I think, put a lot of emphasise on this forthcoming delegation. Do you have any reason to believe that this forthcoming delegation will have any sense of authority and will have to come to any understanding about these issues? We have been trying all morning to discover whether there is any influences on President Mugabe to alter the main policy. You described you tried to utilise the President of Nigeria, neighbouring states, the Commonwealth and OANU. If this delegation in coming do you have any reason to believe it will come with any sense of authority or come to any kind of understanding that could actually bring the immediate crisis to an end if there is some sort of understanding reached between yourselves and this delegation?
  (Mr Hain) At a time when people are being killed and many are being beaten up and violence and lawlessness is taking place it is the duty of British ministers to explore every option and to look for and hope for success rather than anticipate failure. I hope it will be possible for our discussions with that delegation to be productive. I hope that the influences being brought to bear on Zimbabwe in the region, through the Commonwealth, through the organisation for African unity and quite possibly in the end through the United Nations will also be productive. I think it is our duty to explore every opportunity that we have.

  88. Nobody is denying that. You raised a lot of hope and you placed considerable emphasise on the importance of this delegation, I wonder how much hope we should take from it? This delegation is coming, it has been coming for weeks and during this "coming for weeks" there has been violence, there has been murder and there has been burning.
  (Mr Hain) We have been informed by the High Commission that the Foreign Minister Dr Mudenge will be leading the delegation. Mr Nkomo will be also be on it, the Minister for Local Government and National Housing and Dr Shamuyaria, the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Those are fairly senior ministers. Obviously we hope they will have the authority to, as I same sure they will, to talk to us.

  89. May I suggest we indicate that this delegation should come as speedily as possible now?
  (Mr Hain) We do want it to come as speedily as possible. The Foreign Secretary is in India at the present time and we are hoping a convenient time can be made as soon as possible, hopefully next week.

  90. You rightly rejected the concept of sanctions of the kind that have been suggested. There is, indeed, one area where we should indicate very clearly that at this moment in time we have no intention of continuing with any form of arms licensing to Zimbabwe. I know we will have an opportunity to cross-examine you in much closer detail within the next fortnight or so on arms licensing policy, however can I seek clarification from you that there are no standard licences being issued? They were issued in February, after the statement about tightening up. Could you, please, just clarify the position of the Government towards any Hawks spares at this moment in time?
  (Mr Hain) The Hawk spares, as I understand it, have been used for a couple of Hawk aircrafts, which are serviceable in the Congo, the Hawk spares have gone out. We have had no request for new Hawk spares and I think that if there were to be any exports or application for them they would be very seriously considered in light of the current situation and, of course, in the light of the Congo war. Zimbabwe's intervention in the Congo is reportedly costing the country $1 million a day and is bleeding its budget dry. We have a very clear policy, which will apply to Zimbabwe as to other countries, particularly in the current delicate situation with the crisis in Zimbabwe, that we will not supply any arms which could be used for either external aggression or internal repression.

  91. Those Hawk spares went to Hawks that are flying in the Congo?
  (Mr Hain) Indeed.

  92. That conflicted with the criteria.
  (Mr Hain) That was in honour of an existing contract for planes that were supplied by the previous Government in the early 1980s and the early 1990s. The present situation in Zimbabwe and obviously the crisis in Zimbabwe will have to be taken into account in any fresh consideration. There are none that I am aware of that are coming in at the moment in terms of an export licence application.

Mr Chidgey

  93. Just to reinforce the last point, if I can, is it not the case, Minister, that the Government's decision on 24th February to grant those seven Standard Individual Export Licences for the export of Hawk spares does that not conflict with the Prime Minister's claim, made over a month ago, that the Government was tightening up its policy on the export licences for the countries intervening in the conflict in the DRC?
  (Mr Hain) I do not think so. I think it was about a few spares for Hawk aircrafts. We do not know whether the spares were actually used for the two planes in the Congo. I do not think that conflicts at all with a very clear statement about what will be the policy in the future in this respect.

  94. We talked about the policy that was set out by the Prime Minister and it seems to me that decisions taken subsequent to that were against what the Prime Minister told us the policy was. What we do in the future is another issue. I think it is important to recognise that we did not get it right in this one so we can get it right in the future.
  (Mr Hain) You will beware that the Prime Minister actually made the announcements on both occasions, so that is where it rests.

Dr Godman

  95. You mentioned holding discussions with opposition politicians, for example Morgan Tsvangirai who leads what might be described as a heterogenous opposition, brought together only in regard to its opposition to the ZANU/PF and President Mugabe. What about cabinet colleagues of Mr Mugabe? What about Eddison Zvobgo, is it not the case that he is attempting to revitalise Zambea and that he might be amenable to discussing in a constructive way socially just land reform i.e. radical changes in the ownership and the tenure of the land?
  (Mr Hain) I appreciate your questions, Dr Godman, but I do not want to speculate on the individual members of the ZANU/PF party, however high they are, but there is considerable dissent within ZANU/PF, which is unusual given its history. I know there are progressive voices who well understand what needs to be done, who do not agree with the present policy of the President and Government and who would wish to see a much more constructive approach.

  96. I do not want to ask you difficult questions.
  (Mr Hain) That is your job, is not it?

  97. Well, questions that might cause you embarrassment in your continuing discussions. Is it not the case that Eddison Zvobgo and his colleagues are pretty close to Cyril Ramuposa of the ANC and could not a combination of such individuals, such as Mr Zvobgo and Mr Ramuposa play an influential mediating constraining role in combination where the President and his supporters are concerned.
  (Mr Hain) I think it is important that all good friends of Zimbabwe come to its aid at the present time, as we are attempting to do. I respect your question and your knowledge of the situation. I do not deny your right to ask it in a helpful way but I do not want to speculate on individual members of the party.

  98. Let us talk about parties, the ANC has been fairly subdued in terms of, if you like, intervening in a constructive way in Zimbabwe, is that not the case?
  (Mr Hain) The ANC has enjoyed close relations with the ruling party. Can I say too that many ZANU/PF MPs are actually now standing as independents. Some ministers find themselves in a situation where they are not being automatically chosen any more, so there is obviously a change on the way.

  99. The South African Government, the President and prominent members of the ANC could play a very helpful role in helping to sort things out?
  (Mr Hain) I assume that is why President Mbeki is due to visit Harare soon.


 
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