Examination of witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
TUESDAY 18 APRIL 2000
MR PETER
HAIN and MS
FRANCES MACLEOD
Chairman
80. It is the interests of Zimbabwe to have
their skills.
(Mr Hain) It is very much in the interests of Zimbabwe
to have their skills. One of the most disturbing and saddening
features of the current farm invasions is that those skills are
not being able to be deployed, as a result of which the country
is being hurt.
Mr Rowlands
81. May I seek clarification on these numbers,
14,500 are registered as British nationals with the High Commission
and therefore either have British passports or would be issued
with them on request; that is right?
(Mr Hain) That is right.
82. You think there may be another 5,500 who
may qualify as well, if you talk about the figure of 20,000?
(Mr Hain) Yes, that is our best estimate.
83. British citizenship is very clearly and
narrowly defined?
(Mr Hain) Indeed. You cannot be certain until an individual
presents him or herself at the High Commission and that can be
established.
84. Of those 14,500 who registered how many
are farmers as opposed to people who lived in what was Rhodesia,
and now Zimbabwe, retired pensioners, ex-public service workers
and others, who may not be directly effected by the present conflict?
(Mr Hain) I do not have figures on that. I am happy
to establish those figures, if I am able to, and provide them
to the Committee in writing.
85. It would important to clarify, would it
not, between those who by the terrible circumstances of the last
few weeks may be forced to leave as opposed to those who may feel
they are forced because they lived not as farmers but as citizens
in Zimbabwe.
(Mr Hain) Yes, indeed. Although I respect your focus
on this problem, because it could ultimately be an issue for Britain,
I want to stress that everything that is said or done at the present
time must concentrate on the rights of those people to stay in
Zimbabwe, as they wish to do.
86. One further clarification on the issue of
citizenship, is it the case that any Commonwealth citizen who
has a parent born in the United Kingdom has the right to a vote
in the United Kingdom?
(Mr Hain) The detail of those matters is a matter
obviously for the Home Office. Can I make one other point, I will
happily return to it, if you wish, in some cases many of these
individuals will go to other countries. Some have already gone
to South Africa, some of their children have gone to the South
Africa. Australia, New Zealand and Canada are also countries that
they tend to move to. I do not think you should anticipate what
may happen.
87. You have repeatedly said throughout your
evidence this morning that you wanted a measured response. You
also, I think, put a lot of emphasise on this forthcoming delegation.
Do you have any reason to believe that this forthcoming delegation
will have any sense of authority and will have to come to any
understanding about these issues? We have been trying all morning
to discover whether there is any influences on President Mugabe
to alter the main policy. You described you tried to utilise the
President of Nigeria, neighbouring states, the Commonwealth and
OANU. If this delegation in coming do you have any reason to believe
it will come with any sense of authority or come to any kind of
understanding that could actually bring the immediate crisis to
an end if there is some sort of understanding reached between
yourselves and this delegation?
(Mr Hain) At a time when people are being killed and
many are being beaten up and violence and lawlessness is taking
place it is the duty of British ministers to explore every option
and to look for and hope for success rather than anticipate failure.
I hope it will be possible for our discussions with that delegation
to be productive. I hope that the influences being brought to
bear on Zimbabwe in the region, through the Commonwealth, through
the organisation for African unity and quite possibly in the end
through the United Nations will also be productive. I think it
is our duty to explore every opportunity that we have.
88. Nobody is denying that. You raised a lot
of hope and you placed considerable emphasise on the importance
of this delegation, I wonder how much hope we should take from
it? This delegation is coming, it has been coming for weeks and
during this "coming for weeks" there has been violence,
there has been murder and there has been burning.
(Mr Hain) We have been informed by the High Commission
that the Foreign Minister Dr Mudenge will be leading the delegation.
Mr Nkomo will be also be on it, the Minister for Local Government
and National Housing and Dr Shamuyaria, the Minister for Industry
and Commerce. Those are fairly senior ministers. Obviously we
hope they will have the authority to, as I same sure they will,
to talk to us.
89. May I suggest we indicate that this delegation
should come as speedily as possible now?
(Mr Hain) We do want it to come as speedily as possible.
The Foreign Secretary is in India at the present time and we are
hoping a convenient time can be made as soon as possible, hopefully
next week.
90. You rightly rejected the concept of sanctions
of the kind that have been suggested. There is, indeed, one area
where we should indicate very clearly that at this moment in time
we have no intention of continuing with any form of arms licensing
to Zimbabwe. I know we will have an opportunity to cross-examine
you in much closer detail within the next fortnight or so on arms
licensing policy, however can I seek clarification from you that
there are no standard licences being issued? They were issued
in February, after the statement about tightening up. Could you,
please, just clarify the position of the Government towards any
Hawks spares at this moment in time?
(Mr Hain) The Hawk spares, as I understand it, have
been used for a couple of Hawk aircrafts, which are serviceable
in the Congo, the Hawk spares have gone out. We have had no request
for new Hawk spares and I think that if there were to be any exports
or application for them they would be very seriously considered
in light of the current situation and, of course, in the light
of the Congo war. Zimbabwe's intervention in the Congo is reportedly
costing the country $1 million a day and is bleeding its budget
dry. We have a very clear policy, which will apply to Zimbabwe
as to other countries, particularly in the current delicate situation
with the crisis in Zimbabwe, that we will not supply any arms
which could be used for either external aggression or internal
repression.
91. Those Hawk spares went to Hawks that are
flying in the Congo?
(Mr Hain) Indeed.
92. That conflicted with the criteria.
(Mr Hain) That was in honour of an existing contract
for planes that were supplied by the previous Government in the
early 1980s and the early 1990s. The present situation in Zimbabwe
and obviously the crisis in Zimbabwe will have to be taken into
account in any fresh consideration. There are none that I am aware
of that are coming in at the moment in terms of an export licence
application.
Mr Chidgey
93. Just to reinforce the last point, if I can,
is it not the case, Minister, that the Government's decision on
24th February to grant those seven Standard Individual Export
Licences for the export of Hawk spares does that not conflict
with the Prime Minister's claim, made over a month ago, that the
Government was tightening up its policy on the export licences
for the countries intervening in the conflict in the DRC?
(Mr Hain) I do not think so. I think it was about
a few spares for Hawk aircrafts. We do not know whether the spares
were actually used for the two planes in the Congo. I do not think
that conflicts at all with a very clear statement about what will
be the policy in the future in this respect.
94. We talked about the policy that was set
out by the Prime Minister and it seems to me that decisions taken
subsequent to that were against what the Prime Minister told us
the policy was. What we do in the future is another issue. I think
it is important to recognise that we did not get it right in this
one so we can get it right in the future.
(Mr Hain) You will beware that the Prime Minister
actually made the announcements on both occasions, so that is
where it rests.
Dr Godman
95. You mentioned holding discussions with opposition
politicians, for example Morgan Tsvangirai who leads what might
be described as a heterogenous opposition, brought together only
in regard to its opposition to the ZANU/PF and President Mugabe.
What about cabinet colleagues of Mr Mugabe? What about Eddison
Zvobgo, is it not the case that he is attempting to revitalise
Zambea and that he might be amenable to discussing in a constructive
way socially just land reform i.e. radical changes in the ownership
and the tenure of the land?
(Mr Hain) I appreciate your questions, Dr Godman,
but I do not want to speculate on the individual members of the
ZANU/PF party, however high they are, but there is considerable
dissent within ZANU/PF, which is unusual given its history. I
know there are progressive voices who well understand what needs
to be done, who do not agree with the present policy of the President
and Government and who would wish to see a much more constructive
approach.
96. I do not want to ask you difficult questions.
(Mr Hain) That is your job, is not it?
97. Well, questions that might cause you embarrassment
in your continuing discussions. Is it not the case that Eddison
Zvobgo and his colleagues are pretty close to Cyril Ramuposa of
the ANC and could not a combination of such individuals, such
as Mr Zvobgo and Mr Ramuposa play an influential mediating constraining
role in combination where the President and his supporters are
concerned.
(Mr Hain) I think it is important that all good friends
of Zimbabwe come to its aid at the present time, as we are attempting
to do. I respect your question and your knowledge of the situation.
I do not deny your right to ask it in a helpful way but I do not
want to speculate on individual members of the party.
98. Let us talk about parties, the ANC has been
fairly subdued in terms of, if you like, intervening in a constructive
way in Zimbabwe, is that not the case?
(Mr Hain) The ANC has enjoyed close relations with
the ruling party. Can I say too that many ZANU/PF MPs are actually
now standing as independents. Some ministers find themselves in
a situation where they are not being automatically chosen any
more, so there is obviously a change on the way.
99. The South African Government, the President
and prominent members of the ANC could play a very helpful role
in helping to sort things out?
(Mr Hain) I assume that is why President Mbeki is
due to visit Harare soon.
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