Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 299)
WEDNESDAY 25 OCTOBER 2000
RT HON
ROBIN COOK,
MP, MS ROSALIND
MARSDEN AND
MR TONY
SPRAKE
Mr Rowlands
280. I have a WTO Taiwanese point. Presumably
we have given our full support to the Taiwanese application to
join the WTO
(Mr Cook) I will have to take advice on that, Mr Rowlands.
What is the position, Mr Sprake?
(Mr Sprake) We are hoping that WTO accession can take
place for Taiwan at roughly the same time.
281. We would therefore oppose any attempt by
the Chinese to prevent Taiwan joining the WTO?
(Mr Cook) That would logically follow but I am not
sure that I necessarily anticipate that. China is neuralgic with
anything that suggests that Taiwan is an independent state but
it has been extremely tolerant and, indeed, co-operating in the
commercial activities of Taiwan. Taiwan is, after all, one of
the major investors in mainland China.
282. It would be absurd if China, a far less
open economy than even Taiwan has now, could join and somehow
they could obstruct the application of Taiwan.
(Mr Cook) We have no reason to believe that they will
obstruct and should they do so we will report to the Committee.
You are absolutely right, Taiwan would not have any difficulty
of significance in meeting the terms of WTO membership.
Sir John Stanley
283. If I may ask two trade related questions.
Foreign Secretary, as you are aware, the Foreign Office in China
has a wholly unique arrangement for carrying out its British trade
promotion activities. In China alone in the world there is both
a publicly funded private sector organisation, the China Britain
Business Council, working alongside British Trade International.
Can I ask you, are you happy that that is the optimum arrangement
for the promotion of British trade in China?
(Mr Cook) I think to say one was happy it was the
optimum would smack of complacency. There is always room for review
and for improvement. Indeed, at the present time the DTI and the
FCO are reviewing our investment strategy on trade in China and
I hope that will produce some streamlining of the present arrangement.
Both bodies have a role to play, both bodies have a contribution
to make. I think it is probably helpful that we review quite how
they fit together and how they act in a complementary way. We
anticipate an outcome of this review in late November/December
and I will advise the Committee as soon as we are aware of the
outcome.
284. When you say, Foreign Secretary, that you
think that both bodies have a role to play, would the Committee,
therefore, be right in concluding that you do not agree with the
CBBC's recommendation that it should take over the whole responsibility
for British trade promotion in China?
(Mr Cook) I fully understand why it might wish to
make a negotiating bid of that character but I am not quite clear
how it would work since, after all, the whole point of BTI is
it brings together the DTI's old networks in Britain with the
Foreign Office's networks around the world. The strength of BTI
is that interface between those who deal with businesses within
Britain and those who promote British business abroad. I think
it would be very unwise to take that immense strength to the network
out of the picture.
285. The second question I would like to put
to you arises from the fact that I, together with three other
Members of the Committee, were part of the Committee that went
to Chongqing where the UK is the first country to establish a
Consulate-General in the city that China regards as the gateway
to the great western development programme that it has. I think
that all of us who went to Chongqing were hugely impressed at
the immensely cost effective way the Foreign Office had established
a Consulate-General there with just two UK diplomatic personnel,
both you will be glad to know Scottish.
(Mr Cook) Of course.
286. They are ably assisted by a number of excellent
and extremely English fluent speaking locally engaged Chinese
staff. Could you tell us, Foreign Secretary, given that demonstrably
successful case of how the Foreign Office can establish, at relatively
low cost, a Consulate-General covering a commercially extremely
valuable area with a large population, do you think that what
the Foreign Office has done in Chongqing might be a model that
can be copied elsewhere around the world as to how to rapidly
and quickly establish a new Consulate-General where there are
commercial opportunities on a large scale to be had?
(Mr Cook) Absolutely. We have maintained a very clear
review of our overseas posts and we have been able to do it in
the context of expansion as a result of the last two financial
settlements which have enabled us to expand our representation
abroad rather than to contract it. I think I have already explained
to the Committee that even in the context of increasing resources
it is important that we review very carefully whether the pattern
of missions relates to where the maximum advantage for Britain
rests and, therefore, Britain's interests. We have closed, therefore,
a number of missions and focused on opening missions where there
are particular trade and commercial prospects, moving away from
increasing the number of missions which are not themselves in
capital posts. The Consulate, to which you are referring, is one
I think we have opened in the last two years. I am very pleased
that it was part of a deliberate strategy that we have taken of
opening up commercial posts where there are future commercial
opportunities. I welcome your support for that and I can assure
you that, resources permitting, I want to do more.
Chairman
287. It was indeed a very impressive visit,
as Sir John has said. Before calling Dr Godman can I ask one further
question on human rights. The question always is where are the
pressure points, where are the points of leverage in negotiations
with the Chinese who have a very high reputation as hard negotiators?
To what extent are we and our EU colleagues willing to use issues
like the World Trade Organisation and, for example, the Chinese
bid for the Olympics as pressure points in trying to obtain a
better deal in respect of human rights in that country? Given
the fact that human rights was probably the reason why China did
not succeed in their bid for the 2000 Olympics, and now we accept
there has been deterioration in the human rights situation in
China, do ourselves and the EU draw the necessary conclusions?
(Mr Cook) First of all on the WTO, it is an accepted
and very deeply embedded convention that one does not import political
judgments into WTO decisions but that is not to underrate the
immense impact there will be on political culture within China
of exposure to WTO conditions and WTO activities. On the question
of the Olympics, the decision that was taken for the year 2000
speaks for itself, as you have said. Those considerations will
no doubt remain in the minds of those who take that decision in
the future, though I am relieved to say it will not be the General
Affairs Council of the European Union.
288. Will the EU be seeking a common decision?
(Mr Cook) Can I say here that I am very conscious
of the frustration that we are not able to obtain more rapid progress
on human rights and nobody shares that more than I do. I am also
very open to suggestions of ways in which we can edge—and
it is not going to be a dramatic stampede—towards securing
better human rights within China. Those of us from outside should
do all we can to try and achieve progress towards an improved
standard of political and democratic behaviour within China. It
is going to take a long time and I think we have also got to be
alert to the fact that some things one might do in the name of
human rights can actually be counter-productive in securing our
objective of raising human rights. In particular, and I know the
deep frustration this causes those who campaign on the issue,
I fully understand it, sometimes the more visible and flamboyant
the gesture, the more counter-productive it can be.
Dr Godman
289. Just a very brief question on Taiwan. I
have not been there, I have no interest to declare. What is the
Government's position on the desire of the Taiwanese to secure
membership of the World Health Organisation?
(Mr Cook) I cannot answer that without notice but
certainly I can get you a reply.
290. I just have a couple of questions on the
United Nations. In your memorandum, paragraph four, you talk about
the China/US relations having improved following President Clinton's
decision not to proceed with the deployment of the national missile
defence. Has that led to any improvements between this Government's
discussions with China on UN peacekeeping operations? I ask that
because in the very same paragraph you talk about the Chinese
having as a major foreign policy preoccupation the principle of
the inviolability of national sovereignty. Has China at any time
recently criticised this Government's intervention in Sierra Leone,
for example?
(Mr Cook) No, not that I am aware of, but it would
be surprising if they were to do so in the terms of the ideology
you refer to there because they have always drawn a clear distinction
that where you are present in a peacekeeping role at the invitation
of the host government then you are not infringing sovereignty.
Our presence in Sierra Leone is widely popular with the people
of Sierra Leone and has the whole backing of the Sierra Leone
Government. There is not a sovereignty issue there. Where China
draws the line is in actions which do not have the support of
the host government.
291. As in Kosovo?
(Mr Cook) Yes, where by Chinese ideology we would
have required the permission of the Government of Belgrade to
rescue the Kosovo-Albanians from the troops of the Government
of Belgrade.
292. Have there been any changes in the Chinese
perception concerning the reform of the United Nations, for example
on the issue of the further development of peacekeeping operations
and the setting up of more stable permanent operations within
that peacekeeping dimension?
(Mr Cook) No. China's political hostility to this
area of debate relates to those matters we call intervention which
by definition they see as hostile to the host government. In terms
of developing a peacekeeping operation of the kind described by
the Brahimi Report, their contributions have been measured and
constructed and, indeed, the Millennium Summit produced a discussion
among the P5 members which showed a very substantial degree of
common ground in relation to the Brahimmi Report. We are now seeking
to take that forward and Britain is very much in the vanguard
of trying to push for agreement to the Brahimi proposals. I hope
we will be able to make progress by next spring and so long as
China does not feel that this is the thin end of the wedge for
the wider kind of intervention we are talking about I would not
anticipate a major dispute with China.
293. Are they willing to engage in any way in
the debate concerning the principle of the reform of the United
Nations?
(Mr Cook) By that you mean the Security Council?
294. Yes.
(Mr Cook) I cannot claim to recall a recent announcement
by them on this but the Brahimi Summit did produce 150 different
commitments in support of reform of the Security Council. We are
now actively trying to build on that to get agreement during this
General Assembly to an increased ceiling for the numbers of permanent
and non-permanent members. How they are then filled is a much
more difficult task but until we get the numbers right we cannot
proceed to that. Mr Sprake, can you inform us about China's attitude
to this question.
(Mr Sprake) I think China tends to be fairly conservative
in its approach and does not want to take the lead on these issues.
I think certainly it would not be unwilling to see changes in
the Security Council provided this was not likely to undermine
its veto, to which it obviously attaches very great importance.
Chairman: We will now move on to Hong Kong.
Ms Abbott?
Ms Abbott
295. This Committee takes a great interest in
Hong Kong, we have visited it twice in this Parliament. Obviously
the overall handover went tremendously well but there are a few
issues that were raised with us when we were last there. One of
them is the Hong Kong administration on the mainland are negotiating
extradition agreements. What is the Government's attitude towards
this?
(Mr Cook) First of all, can I very much welcome the
interest that the Committee shows in Hong Kong. I think it is
very important that we send a clear signal, first to Hong Kong
and to Beijing, that we retain a great interest in Hong Kong,
we regard it as a friend and as a major trading partner and that
is not something we have moved on from. On the extradition negotiations
that you refer to, this is a matter for the Government of the
special administrative region but we would expect any outcome
to be wholly consistent with the basic law and with the judicial
process of Hong Kong.
296. Does Her Majesty's Government feel there
is anything it can do, or should do, to discourage mainland intervention
in Hong Kong politics?
(Mr Cook) We spent the whole of the negotiating process
up to the handover trying to get agreements so that could not
happen, or should not happen. Indeed, the agreements that we reached
with Beijing were specifically designed in order to prevent that
from happening. Hong Kong, since handover, has retained its democratic
institution. The turn-out in the recent election was slightly
down on the first election at the time of handover but it was
still quite high, it was higher than the elections that preceded
hand over, so there was a marginal increase in the vote for the
Democratic Party. We have some concerns about some issues that
have developed since hand over but by and large the institutions
have remained in tact and we do not currently have major concerns
about political interference from Beijing.
297. As I said, overall the handover went very
well but, for instance, in April of this year the Deputy Head
of the Central Liaison Office in Hong Kong issued instructions
that "the media [in Hong Kong] should not treat speeches
and views advocating Taiwan's independence as normal news items,
nor should they report them". This has caused a lot of concern
in the territory. Is this anything which Her Majesty's Government
feels able to do anything about?
(Mr Cook) We would wholly disagree with that statement.
I think at the time we issued a statement disagreeing with it.
If I recall rightly it was covered in our six monthly report as
well. It is not a statement we would agree with, nor is it one
that we believe is proper in terms of the agreed terms for the
establishment of a Hong Kong special administrative region. Ms
Marsden, would you like to amplify that?
(Ms Marsden) If I could just add that both in April
and June of this year the British Government did make statements
on some controversial remarks which had been made by officials
of the Chinese Government's Liaison Office in Hong Kong. On both
occasions we did publicly make our views clear.
Mr Rowlands
298. The Chinese have blocked the appointment
of a Taiwanese Liaison Officer in Hong Kong, have they not?
(Mr Cook) I am not sighted on that. We can enquire
into that. We should not underrate the extent to which China is
opposed to anything which provides Taiwan recognition of state.
Do you know any more on this, Mr Sprake?
(Mr Sprake) No. I know that there was an issue of
a Taiwanese. I do not know whether he was there as a travel officer
or whatever but there were problems over that. I think we had
better write to the Committee.
(Mr Cook) We will submit a note.
Ms Abbott
299. On both visits we were privileged to meet
the Chief Executive, Tung Chee-hwa, and he was very amiable both
times, but if anything on our last visit he was less interested
in moving rapidly to universal suffrage than when we originally
saw him. Does Her Majesty's Government see any scope at all towards
more rapid movement to universal suffrage for all of the seats
in the LegCo and direct election of the Chief Executive? You will
know the views of people like Martin Lee and Emily Lau on this
subject.
(Mr Cook) If I recall rightly there is a timetable
for the achievement of both a wider franchise for the LegCo and
for the direct election of the Chief Executive by 2007. The timetable
was part of the agreement and we would expect that timetable to
be adhered to.
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