Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40
- 59)
TUESDAY 4 APRIL 2000
MRS BARBARA
ROCHE, MR
JOHN WARNE
AND MRS
LESLEY PALLETT
Mr Fabricant
40. I want to move back to the area of these
organised gangs which you have already been talking about. David
Winnick was asking you about the nature of these gangs. You say
they are determined gangs of organised criminals. Where are these
organisations? Are they within the European Union or are they
based in the countries from whence the refugees have come?
(Mrs Roche) It is a combination. Remember, this is
opportunist. There will be bits of it. Sometimes you will get
the actual route. Some of them perhaps do the route a bit of the
way; some will do it all the way; some will be engaged in perhaps
a very long court process which may not, at the end of it, feature
in an asylum claim. It might be just facilitating for illegal
working.
41. Earlier on you gave us the impression of
an organisation which, by necessity, requires a head. It requires
an apex, if you like. Where would that apex be?
(Mrs Roche) They can come both from within the European
Union and outside. Can I bring Mr Warne in?
(Mr Warne) It is a very complex picture. There are
gangs operating here, facilitators en route, some groups based
in particular countries, organising the business from the outset,
but there is a lot of fluidity. These are not established companies
who put their name plates outside the door. They move from country
to country and they mix in different groups according to the commodity
they are dealing with. In this case, it is wretched human beings.
It could be drugs; it could be firearms; it could be other commodities
or smuggling tobacco. There is already very good cooperation between
immigration, police and other agencies, both here and in the European
Union, in addressing these issues. What I think we are trying
to do more of is to get back to the source of the problem. That
requires a lot of work, a lot of cooperative endeavour, and that
is what we are trying to achieve so that even if we cannot prosecute
as we would like to we can achieve the maximum disruption possible.
That is the focus. It is not just dealing with the problem when
it impacts on us but working with European Union colleagues to
ensure that we understand what is happening through those countries
as well as here, and looking beyond that, especially to eastern
Europe, to see if we can assist countries there to deal with the
problem and to get to the root of it rather than just deal with
it when it is already a problem on our door step.
42. Do you believe that each European Union
country is putting enough effort into not just maintaining border
controls but actually providing criminal investigation into trying
to arrest the people organising it?
(Mr Warne) I think more could be done but there is
already a high level of effort. Europol is helping to provide
a European Union intelligence picture of what is happening within
the 15. That is much better than operating on our own or bilaterally.
What we need to do is to convert that intelligence picture into
more operational activity. This is one of the reasons why the
government proposed at Tampere that there should be a police chiefs
task force so that, having looked at the nature of criminality
in the European Union, police chiefs who can commit resources
to it could get together and set up joint investigative teams
to pursue these matters.
43. You say more could be done. Are there any
EU states you think are not pulling their weight? Is there a soft
underbelly in Europe today just as there was in 1943?
(Mr Warne) Different countries have different problems
at different times. We were in Rome last week, talking about these
issues because there is a flood of traffic around the Adriatic
and they have severe problems. We want to work closely with them.
It requires us to understand what they are doing before we form
any judgments and in that case we were impressed by the effort
being made and the way they have responded to the minister's request
for help in dealing with the movement of people by rail freight
traffic, for example. This requires cooperative endeavour rather
than finger pointing. We think we are getting quite a lot of support
and help. There is always room for more.
(Mrs Roche) When I raise it with other Member States,
there is a lot of willingness. The key thing is that we just push
this up the agenda because it has not been. Certainly discussion
on this international trade is something that an awareness of
it has actually grown in recent times. I have met the Italian
minister Maritarti because of course we have got this dreadful
trade, this rail freight trade, which is coming from Italy and
alighting in Wembley and in this city. The Italians have been
taking some action and we have got them to take some more, so
it is actually making sure we highlight it. Again, Mr Warne mentioned
the operational police chiefs. That is why I have said to the
Commissioner that this is exactly the sort of activity which is
trans-border which they can look at and I think have a real practical
effect on.
44. You mentioned Wembley. Let us move back
to our own borders and move away from rail traffic to road traffic.
Is it fair to pick on truck drivers if they find, or more to the
point our own border police find, refugees on board their trucks?
(Mrs Roche) What is it that I am saying to the haulage
industry? It is not just the haulage industry that the civil penalty
is on. What I am saying is that first of all they have to have
a secure system in place. Also, it has to be secure on the day.
I have been to Dover when clandestine entrants have been found
and I have looked at the canvas. I could get into that canvas.
Any of us around the table could get into it. It would just require
a removal of the canvas. Of course we know that some of these
facilitators are very sophisticated. They will cut the canvas
and then glue it together. That means people need to check rigorously.
There are devices on the market. There are CO2 devices available.
They are about £700 or £800. It is a bit of a better
investment than having a £2,000 penalty. I think there is
a lot of carelessness that goes on and I think it could be eradicated.
I think there is a responsibility on the industry and everybody
to make sure that people take proper security measures.
Chairman
45. It also applies to coach operators?
(Mrs Roche) Yes.
46. Ferries?
(Mrs Roche) Yes. That is already there under carriers'
liability as well.
Mr Fabricant
47. We heard earlier on from Mr Howarth that
trucks can be left in Calais and I think he said under the eyes
of the French police people are getting into these trucks. Either
we have to strengthen controls in Calais and other border ports
outside the United Kingdom or really you are saying there has
to be a huge investment by truckers, either by providing their
own guards or by rebuilding trucks into safes to prevent people
from climbing in. I am not sure quite what this CO2 device is;
I hope it is not something to gas people, but it does seem to
me that the poor old trucker, who has had a raw deal with the
cost of diesel and everything else, is now being asked to spend
even more money.
(Mrs Roche) I do not accept that. Let me set your
mind at rest about the CO2 device. It is a device that has been
used for some time. It is like a probe. You put it into the canvas
and it will show whether there is a very high level of CO2 which
would indicate that there are numbers of people. Let me give you
some graphic examples. We have had cases of trucks being open
and large numbers of people come out. The haulier will say, "I
didn't know they were in the back of that lorry, guv". Are
you asking me to believe that that is always the case? I am only
talking about a minority here. Of course, there are determined
people who are absolutely determined to get through and they will
get through at all costs. That is why people have to be vigilant.
I have been talking to the industry for months; my officials have
been talking to the industry for months about some of the measures
that they could put on. We have had these measures on the airlines
for some time. Indeed, it was the previous administration that
brought in carriers' liability. Suddenly why we should let one
part of this off, I do not know. There is a lot of scope to improve
this. What is quite interesting is what happened yesterday when
this rolled out. People are looking at this and at the measures.
I believe that the vast majority of the haulage industry are very
responsible people. They will want to comply with what the government
wants to do. They know that there is a difficulty here. They know
that we stand ready to assist them because we have done this.
We have developed a code of practice with the industry. We have
been warning them for some time that this was going to happen.
I am sure they will want to cooperate.
48. Have you made an assessment as to the cost
per truck if they are going to comply? At what level? How do you
determine whether a truck driver has been negligent or even compliant
in allowing people to come in or took all natural and reasonable
precautions but still brought people in?
(Mrs Roche) My immigration officers will look at it
and make an assessment. If it is a criminal matter of facilitation,
it will be for the police. It will interest the Committee to know
that what we have done on the legislation which I have just brought
in is we have put up the penalty for facilitation to ten years.
As far as the civil penalty, the immigration service is very experienced
at searching trucks. We have published a code of practice which
did not come from nowhere. We consulted widely with the industry
on that and they have seen the code of practice. They would have
to show to us that they had a secure system and they have checked
it on the day. There are measures that the industry could take.
For example, one of the things the industry has been talking about
is to have something that is commercially led, some sort of checking
secure facility perhaps just outside the port of Calais which
the vehicles can come to.
49. Have you made that cost assessment?
(Mrs Roche) We are required to do it but in most cases
it is not making this like a—
50. I am actually asking you how much. If you
do not have the figures now, that is fine.
(Mrs Roche) If I have a figure I will give it to you
but it is not so much a case of having to make this thing like
a fortress. It is to make sure that they have secure measures
in place and that they have checked it on the day.
51. Is it not unreasonable for you to ask truckers
to do something when you yourself do not know the cost to the
truck drivers, to the trucking operators?
(Mrs Roche) I can tell you what the cost is to the
truck drivers. It is £2,000 per clandestine entrant if they
do not get it right.
52. No; you misunderstand what I am asking you:
not the penalties but the cost of setting up secure systems.
(Mrs Roche) We will have done presumably a regulatory
impact assessment.
53. Presumably?
(Mrs Roche) It is quite difficult to say to you that
every lorry will be different, so it is very difficult to say
what you need to do for each lorry. It is in the interest of the
haulage industry itself to take a proper message because if they
are carrying perishable goods and other things it may well be
that their whole load is going to be damaged. If you look, for
example, on the rail freight that is coming through, the industry
loses whole pallets from this. This is also something that is
not just for my benefit or for the benefit of the British taxpayer;
it is also for the benefit of the actual industry. I will look
to check to see what we did on the regulatory impact assessment.
54. Will you write to me?
(Mrs Roche) Of course I will. I will write to the
Committee.[2]
Chairman
55. Will you send us a copy of the leaflet you
were handing out?
(Mrs Roche) I certainly will, yes.[3]
Bob Russell
56. If this body heat seeking apparatus is so
efficient—
(Mrs Roche) CO2.
57. Whatever it is, would you not agree it would
be far simpler if this was provided by the British government
at all ports of entry? Would that not have dealt with this problem
a long time ago, more efficiently than what some would think are
draconian measures now?
(Mrs Roche) At various times all sorts of different
devices come on to the market. I would not want to say that one
device is better than another, but there are devices that can
be used. I know Mr Corbett has an interest in these matters. We
constantly are looking at new devices. I think the responsibility
is on those. Remember, at the end of the day, you have a situation,
and in very many cases it is unwitting, of people bring people
clandestinely into the country. I do not think the industry can
abrogate responsibility because at the end of the day the biggest
cost of unfounded claims is going to be paid by the British taxpayer
that Mr Howarth has already mentioned.
58. Responsibility is one thing but surely effectiveness
is what the government is after. Surely we should have effective
measures implemented by the government and not putting the blame
on the truck drivers?
(Mrs Roche) We do not put blame. What we ask them
to do is to make sure that they have proper secure systems in
place. Yesterday's results were extremely encouraging. What made
yesterday different? The civil penalty, clearly.
Mr Cawsey
59. I want to ask a couple of questions about
enforcement but just before I do I want to ask something about
the size of the problem in this country. If somebody asked you
while I was out of the room, I apologise. If I am in a good mood
in the morning and I want to be brought back to earth, I usually
read The Daily Mail and they would say that we have this
dreadful problem in Britain. It is a soft touch and that nice
Barbara Roche lets everybody in. Sometimes I read The Guardian,
which makes me even more depressed, and they will tell me that
Britain is awful and that we do not do as much as other European
countries and that awful Barbara Roche will not let anybody into
the country. Where exactly are we in terms of a lot of asylum
seekers around Europe? What is Britain doing compared to other
countries? In other words, what is the size of the problem comparatively?
(Mrs Roche) I speak as a Member of Parliament and
in my constituency there is the second highest readership of The
Guardian in the United Kingdom. As Michael Caine would say,
not a lot of people know that. All Member States are facing difficulties.
If you look, for example, at the case of Belgium, they are facing
greater percentage increases than we are. I was over the week
before last talking to the Belgian authorities about it but everybody
is seeing these pressures. What we need to have are situations
in place where we actually look to see what action we can take
together, so proper measures in place to exchange information;
proper measures in place to prevent asylum shopping are very important
and also to have a strategic look at this. That is why the working
group and the action plans are very important, to look at developmental
issues and also the conversation about smuggling. The solution
to this problem is to do a number of things. First of all, it
is to deter unfounded claims which is to prevent those gangs and
prevent people coming in in the first place and make sure that
everybody takes their responsibilities. We have been putting that
responsibility on the airlines for years. Why should the haulage
industry not have those responsibilities? Also, to speed up the
system, but the key thing now is to remove people who have made
unfounded claims.
2 See Annex. Back
3
See Annex. Back
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