Examination of witnesses (Questions 1
- 19)
TUESDAY 16 MAY
RT HON
PAUL BOATENG,
MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
JOHN GLAZE
and MR MARTIN
LEE
Chairman
1. Thank you, Mr Boateng, for coming to see
us. We wanted to go over the Government's response to our report
on Drugs and Prisons, but before we get into that I wonder if
it might be convenient to have a few words about Blantyre House.
You will know that a number of us visited Blantyre House and were
much impressed with what we found there. We were grateful when
the Home Secretary responded to say that, on consideration, they
were not now minded to transfer it into a young offenders' institution
but to leave it as it was. I think we got that letter at the end
of last month; then we read that the Governor and the Deputy had
been quickly moved and 100 prison and police officers turned up
at 8.30 on a Friday night, 5 May, and set about the place. Were
you told of the decision to remove the Governor, Mr Boateng?
(Mr Boateng) Chairman, let me first of all set these
events in context. We are, as you know, Chairman, committed to
the concept of resettlement for prisoners; and I have taken a
personal interest in that and in the transition from prison to
the community; and the emphasis on training and education is absolutely
essential to successful resettlement and, therefore, to combatting
recidivism. As a result of that commitment, and as a result of
the undoubtedly valuable work that was and is being performed
at Blantyre House (which in many ways, as you have said, is a
model for others), Ministers were very firmly of the view that
Blantyre House should continue as a resettlement prison—and
let me reaffirm that view here today. There are, however, a number
of concerns that exist on the part of the Prison Service for good
reason as to security at Blantyre House. As a result of those
concerns, it was necessary to carry out a search of that institution;
and as a result of that search quantities of contraband were uncovered,
including drugs, credit cards and large quantities of money. As
a result of that, there clearly is justification in the concerns
in relation to security.
Mr Fabricant
2. Were they stolen credit cards or credit cards
which were legally owned?
(Mr Boateng) I wonder if I could come to that in a
minute. There clearly were concerns and justification for the
concerns that had been expressed around security. I was informed
of the fact that that search was deemed to be necessary. I was
informed of the outcome of the search and of the various personnel
changes that followed it.
Chairman
3. The Governor and the Deputy Governor were
removed before the search started.
(Mr Boateng) I am going to ask the Director General
to respond to you on the operational issues arising from events
at Blantyre House. I want to set it into perspective. The detail
of those concerns—and I now come to Mr Fabricant's point—is
a matter of some sensitivity, Mr Chairman, as indeed is the detailed
outcome of the search. You will understand that there is an ongoing
criminal investigation into matters that stem from the search.
I do not want to comment in any detail on it—save to say,
that the Prison Service, as you will be aware, puts a great store
on its liaison with police and on the business, importance and
significance of intelligence gathering. Indeed, your own report
at paragraph 59 indicates the significance and importance that
you as a Committee attached both to the intelligence gathering
and, indeed, elsewhere in the report you refer to the importance
of police liaison. There was close police liaison around this
operation; close use and detailed use of intelligence sources;
and there are, and remain, serious causes of concern in relation
to security, and there is an ongoing criminal investigation.
4. Are you aware that on the night of 5 May
all the inmates were made to have drug tests; and do you know
the results of those tests?
(Mr Boateng) I do not know the results of any tests.
I am aware that there were some tests. The actual detail of the
tests is an operational matter that I would not expect to be informed
of. I will ask the Director General to assist the Committee insofar
as he is able subject, as you will appreciate, Chairman, to the
concerns that we have about the integrity of the whole operation—because
we do have to maintain the integrity of the intelligence operation
and not in any way prejudice the ongoing criminal investigation.
(Mr Narey) The intelligence, as the Minister has stated,
was extremely serious and had been building up for very many weeks.
In 1998 we intervened at Blantyre House to stop certain prisoners
exploiting their conditions of temporary release—they were
attending some work placements which we found to be bogus. It
is not the first time we have had difficulties at Blantyre House.
A very famous notorious prisoner called Kenny Noye was there some
years ago and was involved in very serious criminal activities.
I think Blantyre House is a very, very precious place and the
actions I decided to take to search it were to protect what is
so special and vital about the place. It has a unique population.
It has 20 lifers; it has 29 prisoners serving in excess of 18
years; a lot of those prisoners have very considerable terms to
do and when I received intelligence that they may be involved
in possibly very serious criminal activity, both within and without
the establishment, I felt I had no choice but to go in and take
the actions I did. All of those actions were intended to protect
Blantyre House (which you recognise has been very, very special
indeed) in terms of doing a quite unique job in resettlement.
I was entirely convinced if something very serious had happened
at Blantyre, as it has in the past, that would be a very quick
way to destroy local public confidence (and I live very near to
the establishment) and to destroy parliamentary and ministerial
confidence in what we are doing at Blantyre.
5. Could you answer the question about the drug
tests of the inmates?
(Mr Narey) One of the worries we had about Blantyre,
very relevant to the main business of today, was that while we
were delighted to see the zero level of MDT tests there, some
intelligence (which I can now say proved to be unfounded) suggested
that those tests might not have been properly administered. We
tested all prisoners on that evening. One prisoner refused to
give a sample, which I take as an indication that he had taken
drugs; one prisoner had a significantly diluted sample; all other
prisoners tested negative. So that part of the operation, I am
very relieved to say, did show that my confidence in the drug
regime of Blantyre was fully placed.
6. It is the case, is it not, that last year
Blantyre had the lowest rate of positive response—0.7
per cent?
(Mr Narey) It did, Chairman. It has, of course, a
very carefully selected population, all of whom sign up to a compact
and a regime of voluntary testing. There is no doubt at all, that
is one of the many things which Blantyre does exceptionally well.
7. I think this is what the Minister said—there
is no question, as far as the Prison Service is concerned, of
trying to change the ethos of Blantyre House?
(Mr Narey) None whatsoever on my part. The Minister
has made it very plain to me that he wants the Service to do much
more in terms of developing resettlement, in joining up our regimes
to probation and community provision. Blantyre, Kirklevington
and Latchmere are three resettlement prisons and are a very precious
part of that.
8. Where we stand at the moment—there
are no criminal charges which have been made to date?
(Mr Narey) That is correct.
9. At some stage there will be a report, which
I assume will go to the Minister?
(Mr Narey) That is correct.
10. Its publication, presumably, will have to
depend on whether or not there are criminal charges?
(Mr Boateng) Chairman, subject to your views on the
matter, which of course we will be very happy to receive, what
I propose to do at the conclusion of the criminal investigation—and,
of course, subject to any outstanding prosecutions, and the usual
legal precautions that have to be taken in order to ensure a fair
trial—it would be my intention to submit a confidential
memorandum to you and to the Committee about the whole incident.
11. That is very kind of you, thank you. There
are reports that five inmates were taken from Blantyre House to
Maidstone Prison, I think?
(Mr Narey) To Elmley Prison, I believe.
12. Can you say why they were removed?
(Mr Narey) Two of them were, the prisoner who had
a positive test which was diluted, and the other was the person
who refused to take a test. The others were the subject of the
intelligence gathered both from the police and other prisoners
about their involvement in potentially illegal activities while
in Blantyre.
Mr Howarth
13. Mr Narey, you mentioned you were getting
intelligence over a period of time regarding serious breaches
at Blantyre House. What action did you take to discuss that with
the Governor and senior staff there in order to eliminate the
problem? Was it really necessary to send in 100 police officers,
according to the report, including members of the Control and
Restraint Team to smash down doors? Was this the way to do it?
(Mr Narey) The intelligence over a period of time
was discussed at length with the Governor. I cannot discuss (for
the reasons the Minister has stated) the very special nature of
the more recent intelligence which led us to take the quite extraordinary
action that we did. I think the worth of our doing that is proven
by the quite frightening amount of contraband material we found,
which included 25 bank or credit cards, not held legally, cameras,
passports, driving licences in forged names, visiting orders for
other prisons and escape equipment, which would have meant that
an individual there fairly easily could have effected his escape.
It showed that our concern, from the intelligence we had, about
a certain balance being lost somewhat between the security requirements
of the prison and its very commendable emphasis on resettlement,
was justified.
14. No-one would deny the seriousness of what
apparently was going on there, but could there not have been other
ways of establishing where the contraband was without this raid
and the smashing down of prison doors and so on?
(Mr Narey) I do not believe so, Mr Howarth. It was
a very difficult decision for me to take personally—the
Governor is a personal friend—but it was my view, having
taken full account of the intelligence, that had we moved the
Governor (who was due for a move anyway) and then conducted the
search at a later date there may have been certain criminals there
who would have ceased certain activities; and certainly the police
view was that we should go in immediately. As regards the publicity
about doors being broken down—there were areas of the prison
where keys were not available and that should not be the case.
The total amount of damage, I might say, is in the region of £400;
and that meant we could be absolutely sure that every area of
that prison had been searched. I might mention that the last time
the prison was properly searched drugs were found not hidden in
a prison cell, where they are frequently not hidden, but hidden
in the health care centre. That was one of the areas in which
we had to gain access.
15. I think you know the Committee was very
impressed on its visit to Blantyre. We particularly noted the
confidence which the visitors had in the Governor himself. I wonder
if you can assure us, notwithstanding the difficulties that have
recently occurred, there will be firm steps taken by the Prison
Service to continue the ethos of Blantyre House under the previous
Governor? There were suggestions that somehow he was out of line
with Prison Service thinking and, therefore, this might be a good
moment to quash this kind of development and stop it being replicated
elsewhere in the country?
(Mr Narey) I can give you that assurance unequivocally.
The brief given to the new Governor is that he is to reassert
the proper balance of security but retain and exploit all that
is good about Blantyre, all that appears to have worked in settling
prisoners effectively.
Chairman
16. I am still puzzled as to why you felt it
necessary to remove both the Governor and the Deputy when that
search, of course, could have been carried out with them still
in place?
(Mr Narey) Mr Chairman, we did not remove the Deputy
Governor. We removed the Governor, Mr McLennan-Murray and a governor
grade 5. The Deputy Governor remains in post. The reason we did
that I cannot fully divulge, but I am confident we will be able
to do so in the confidential memorandum.
Mr Howarth
17. The point about the confidential memorandum—I
can well understand what the Minister is saying given his experience
as a lawyer as to why he cannot publicly give us a report whilst
prosecutions may well be pending. If he is going to give us a
confidential report, may I suggest he might say ways in which
he might be able to deliver that to us in advance of prosecutions
taking place, otherwise we will not see a report this side of
the year 2003.
(Mr Boateng) I do not think it is quite as bad as
that, Mr Howarth. We are, after all, taking measures to speed
up the Criminal Justice System. Let me just say, it would be my
intention to be as open with the Committee as soon as I can be.
If that means an interim memorandum earlier, followed by a fuller
report later, then that is the course we will take. I am anxious
that the Committee should have the full information.
Mr Linton
18. Could I ask a question about the background
to this. In a report in the Observer it says the Governor,
Mr McLennan-Murray, and his Deputy had been transferred in a move
widely interpreted as a criticism of their progressive methods.
We found a lot to praise about their methods—their philosophy
if you like. Is it purely a criticism of the vigilance with which
they were enforcing their own regime; or is it in any sense a
criticism of the regime or the philosophy behind it?
(Mr Narey) It is absolutely the former, Mr Linton.
The regime at Blantyre is very precious to me and I want to preserve
it. I have believed for some time and I have expressed my reservations
to the Board of Visitors about security. A year ago, I wrote a
report in the Commissioner's book at the prison about my anxiety
that there had been a certain loss in that balance. I felt absolutely
confident that if some very serious crime had occurred, as a result
of activities taking place either within Blantyre House or by
prisoners on temporary release, that would be a very quick way
to destroy what we have there, and at Kirklevington and at Latchmere
House.
19. You do agree with the particular system
they use at Blantyre House for resettlement, essentially trusting
the prisoners but being merciless if the trust is betrayed, and
that is a good way of resettling prisons?
(Mr Narey) It is a good way, although I do have some
anxieties about the level of supervision of the temporary release
procedures. Blantyre is not best placed geographically. Kirklevington,
for example, a very similar prison is in industrial Teesside;
the prisoners work very close to the prison; staff are able to
get out and check they are there and working properly much more
frequently. I believe the Governor at Blantyre has erred in allowing
some work placements to take place far too far away from the establishment—which
has meant, for example, some prisoners returning from work placements
in the early hours of the morning.
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