Examination of witnesses (Questions 80
- 88)
TUESDAY 16 MAY
RT HON
PAUL BOATENG,
MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
JOHN GLAZE
and MR MARTIN
LEE
Mrs Dean
80. Minister, has the intended balance between
the provision of treatment services internally by the Prison Service
and that provided by external providers been adhered to in practice?
What are the proportions?
(Mr Boateng) We certainly have made every effort to
actively involve the voluntary sector and external providers,
not least because of the rigour that the Director General has
insisted upon in terms of the procurement process and the complex
nature of the market. So that has of necessity involved us in
the process which has sought to get a proper balance. I do have
the figures, now kindly brought to my attention, and it is in
terms of rehab literally 50-50. My own view is that one should
not necessarily have any fixed percentage. We want to make sure
that we are utilising the resources as best we can and that means
a willingness if necessary to go for a greater outside provision
if that is the best and most cost effective way of delivering
it. But the market will vary, not least because of inflexibilities
and rigidity within that market. As I indicated earlier on, Mrs
Dean, the Department of Health and ourselves do have concerns
about recruitment and capacity and we have taken a number of initiatives
which I would be happy to outline in order to address that concern.
81. Could you tell the Committee who will provide
an external audit to ensure a balance is achieved, if not the
UK Drugs Co-ordinator?
(Mr Boateng) I do not know the answer to that question
and I will ask the Director General if he does.
(Mr Narey) The provision and the balance of delivery
treatment services has all been agreed in fine detail with the
UK Drugs Co-ordinator. He was cautious about the extent of the
involvement of prison officers in the work. He was persuaded by
me that using prison officers was one way of taking the drug strategy
deeper into prisons, and I think if he were here he would volunteer
he has been persuaded that is very important. We will continue
in that balance to work very closely with Keith Hellawell and
to make sure that we are, as he says, part of the wider drugs
strategy. But, in addition, later this year we will be putting
in hand some additional research which will be done by independent
universities which will evaluate the effectiveness of the whole
strategy and which will include a critical look at whether or
not we are getting best value for money in the balance between
using our staff and using voluntary agency staff.
(Mr Boateng) Can I just make the point about the advantage
of some involvement of prison staff? I think the same case can
be made, and I know it is an interest of the Committee, in relation
to prison health care. We have to develop, and I am full of admiration
for the front line officers who are engaged in this work, a culture
on the wings which is anti-drug. The key people on the wings are
prison officers. These are a body of men and women who do have
and have developed day in, day out real skills in terms of personnel
and human management. They are able through their conversations
that they are encouraged—and the best of them do have—to
have with inmates on the wings to send out some very, very positive
messages. They do actually know what folk get up to and how people
play the system. They are well-equipped, particularly when you
put the emphasis that we do put on their training, to play a very
positive role here, as we want them to play, with public health
and other health issues on the wings themselves. So it is important,
and that is why I go back to the point I made earlier, not to
have a sort of doctrinaire or ideological approach to it, that
outsiders,-non-prison staff, are necessarily always going to be
best. The mix does seem to work.
82. I think the one concern that we did have
was that they may be taken away from the task of drugs at a time
of need elsewhere in the prison, rather than their actual ability
to do the job. That is what the Committee was concerned about.
(Mr Boateng) That is a specific operational matter
but my experience, talking to front line staff and to governors,
is that they are very conscious of the dangers of that and would
do everything they could to make sure it did not happen.
(Mr Narey) An absolute priority given to governors
last year and this year, after they have retained their security
record which is much improved, is that they must give greater
emphasis to education, offending behaviour programmes and drug
treatment. It would only be under the most dire circumstances
that a prison officer would be withdrawn from that work. We would,
for example, close workshops and close access to the gymnasium
before we interrupted a drug treatment programme.
83. Can I move on to training? When will the
training needs analysis for prison staff deployed to new treatment
programmes be published? Will it address the Committee's recommendations
for the setting of minimum standards and external audit? How do
you intend to measure the quality of programmes as opposed to
output measurements?
(Mr Boateng) By the end of the year—and yes
is the answer to the first two questions. We are developing the
package taking on board the Health Care Standard 8 requirements
in this area in order to make sure that staff do keep up to date
with developments in the clinical aspects of drug treatment within
the NHS. As I indicated in response to Mr Fabricant, this is seen
as a health issue and part of the wider push on health care in
prisons that we are seeking to take forward.
84. Can I move quickly on to accreditation?
What is the current position regarding accreditation of drug treatment
programmes? Is it still the case that drug treatment programmes
are also required to address offending behaviour before receiving
accreditation?
(Mr Boateng) Yes, both. All drug treatment programmes
are required to achieve accreditation with the joint prison probation
panel by March 2002. That determines the criteria to be met and
we are also taking forward consultation with organisations involved
in the development of the quality in alcohol and drug services,
to go back to a point which was made about the link between alcohol
and drugs. The aim is to get us to meet minimum recognised standards
as the programme moves towards accreditation. So it is not an
all-or-nothing process. By November 2000 in seven prisons we will
have the programme run by RAPt fully accredited and that contains
both the elements you have referred to.
85. Do you know whether the successful treatment
programme operated by RAPt at Downview, which we visited as a
Committee, has now received accreditation?
(Mr Boateng) I do not, but I hear from the Director
General that it is imminent.
Mrs Dean: Thank you.
Chairman
86. Thank you, Minister, Mr Narey, Mr Lee, Mr
Glaze. We are going to have to pull stumps there, I am afraid.
(Mr Boateng) Thank you, Chairman.
87. I wonder, if there are some questions which
we have not been able to put, if we might ask you to comment on
those in writing?
(Mr Boateng) I would be delighted, Chairman.
88. We will keep them to a minimum. Thank you
very much indeed for your help. We are glad of the progress which
is being made.
(Mr Boateng) Thank you very much, Chairman.
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