Examination of witnesses (Questions 100
- 119)
TUESDAY 11 JULY 2000
SIR DAVID
OMAND, KCB, MR
ROBERT FULTON
and MR STEPHEN
BOYS SMITH
100. But can you explain—
(Sir David Omand) I visited one of the pilots in Croydon
and by reducing the number of hearings, for example, they have
taken a major slice out of the total time in each case.
101. Can you explain why Warwickshire has achieved
70 days but just across the border in the West Midlands it is
134 days?
(Sir David Omand) I cannot produce an explanation
off the top of my head, I am afraid. I will certainly let you
have a note if we have a hypothesis.[3]
So much of this is down to whether the individuals running the
courts system have really implemented all of the measures and
progressively they are, which I find enormously encouraging.
102. So most of the work now has been done to
get the laggard areas, if you like, down to the achievements of
the best areas?
(Sir David Omand) It is steady pressure. As long as
the numbers keep coming down then we are confident that we will
hit the final target.
103. Will we have figures on the savings from
the Mode of Trial Bill when that will come into—
(Sir David Omand) We have given some estimates of
saving which I do not think we have anything to add on.
Mr Stinchcombe
104. Can I take you quickly back to crime reduction.
There have been some initiatives launched in my constituency of
Wellingborough. We have had one successful bid for CCTV as far
as I know and two successful bids under the anti-burglary heading,
one of which has now been fully implemented and has resulted in
a 31 per cent reduction in burglaries as I understand it. Not
through any particular rocket science, but through fairly simple
measures: target hardening of windows and locks, cutting back
hedgerows, removing abandoned vehicles, cutting off unnecessary
alleyways. To what extent are we now going to spin out those kinds
of successful initiatives swiftly so that other places can benefit
from very simple measures which are clearly effective?
(Sir David Omand) My team, including in the future
the regional directors, will make sure that success stories like
that get known about throughout the system. That is the first
thing we have to do, to make sure everyone knows what works and
they can see the evidence. Then we have to ensure the funding
is there to push more of these initiatives out which, as you will
imagine, is a matter currently under active discussion in the
spending review. We are confident we are getting the evidence
through of what works. We are also trying to look for other ways
in which we can get at some of these problem areas. For example,
in the work with the Department of the Environment in programmes
to improve the heat insulation of pensioners' houses, if you have
a team visiting a house for heat insulation, why can the same
team not look at the locks and bolts and see if the security cannot
be improved? Initiatives like that will progressively get the
message out that it is possible to reduce crime.
105. The particular scheme that succeeded so
well in Wellingborough turned out to be slightly different in
substance from that which was first anticipated when the bid was
made and approved. It was thought that more money would be spent
on target hardening on locks and on windows than eventually proved
necessary because they were in better condition than people thought
and, therefore, more money was switched to be spent on environmental
improvements—improving lighting, cutting back hedgerows
and whatever. Given that there will necessarily be that kind of
flexibility on the ground in all these initiatives, how hard will
it be for the Home Office properly to monitor and assess exactly
which parts of the various packages are working best?
(Sir David Omand) We have tried to set up for our
major programmes under the £250 million initiative evaluation
control groups that look at similar areas to try to see what happens
to areas that have not had the improvements. So we can begin to
get a feel for how much of this would have happened anyway were
there other initiatives going on and try, as far as we can, to
isolate the elements that are magic and do seem to work. It is
not an exact science. I am not surprised that when they actually
got down on the ground they discovered the conditions were slightly
different and by adapting sensibly they seem to have produced
a big success.
106. One final question on crime reduction.
Before I came here I used to be a planning barrister. I often
wondered why it was not a condition attached to most planning
permissions that CCTV was required. Have you had any thoughts
at all on approaching the Department of the Environment, Transport
& The Regions with a view to suggesting such a policy initiative?
(Sir David Omand) Yes. We are in discussion with them
about that at the moment and they are very sympathetic to it.
There are limitations on how far you can add conditions but the
general approach is one we would like to encourage.
Mr Howarth
107. A very quick question. Sir David, going
back to the crime figures, it is a suggestion in the press, and
therefore it must be true, that there are about to be published
some rather depressing figures in terms of crime. Are you planning,
or have you been asked to plan, to manage the publication of these
new crime figures in such a way as they will be slipped out on
a day when perhaps some good news on spend on public services
might be given?
Mr Winnick: What a terrible suggestion to make.
(Sir David Omand) I can give a complete assurance
to the Committee that I have not been approached in that way.
The publication of these figures, in line with our approach to
national statistics, is in the hands of our chief statistician,
the head of our research and development and statistics organisation,
Professor Wiles. The date chosen, 18 July, has been chosen for
a long time.
Chairman
108. Some weeks or months?
(Sir David Omand) Months. The publication of the summer
statistics is a well known event in the criminological calendar
and we will publish on the due date. Given the attention that
has been given to this publication date we will, to help members
and to help the press, try to ensure the figures are out as early
as possible on the 18th because clearly they will be subject to
a great deal of debate. It will help everyone to get them out
early, which we will do, but the date we do not intend to change
because it is a bad principle to start messing around with the
dates of the publication of national statistics.
Mr Fabricant
109. To help the press still further, I think
the figures mentioned were a three per cent rise in reported crime
and accelerating and a ten per cent rise in violent crime. Just
to help the press you understand, were those figures way out?
(Sir David Omand) Since we have not published the
figures, I am not sure where the figures you quote could have
come from.
Mr Fabricant: The front page of the Guardian.
Chairman
110. It must be wrong.
(Sir David Omand) My advice to the Committee is to
wait until they see the figures published properly with proper
statistical explanations of what they are and what they cover.
Chairman: Thank you, Sir David, but we must
move on. Mr Winnick.
Mr Winnick
111. Some people have suspicious minds. Can
I ask you some questions on the Home Detention Curfew first of
all. What impact has the curfew had on the prison population in
the first year of operation? How many prison places have been
freed as a result?
(Sir David Omand) It has certainly had an impact on
the prison population.
112. If you could keep your voice up and do
not drop it.
(Sir David Omand) I am sorry. It has certainly had
an impact. I think we may have given the Committee the figures
for— I am just looking to see what figures we did give the
Committee. I am not aware that we have calculated the total number
of places that would otherwise have been filled throughout the
life of the Home Detention Curfew. We can certainly do that sum
and let you have it.[4]
113. You see in June 1998 Ministers estimated
that the introduction of Home Detention Curfew would free up 3,000
prison places annually, I am just wondering if that target has
been met. If you are going to give us the information—
(Sir David Omand) I would rather check and make absolutely
certain I have that figure right.
114. But in general terms do you think this
is an encouraging way of making sure that prison places are made
available and at the same time making clear that those who are
subject to the curfew are not being simply released into the community
as such?
(Sir David Omand) We regard the scheme as a huge success.
Its purpose is not to free up prison places, its purpose is to
ease the transition of the offender back into the community by
allowing release on very strict conditions, including up to 12
hours of curfew, for those important few weeks before the offender
would have been released into the community in any rate. That
period of restriction is an important part of the transition.
We are doing it because we believe that is the way in which we
can reduce offending rates by re-integrating people into the community
and it has the great benefit of freeing up prison places which
are in short supply and are needed to meet the demands of the
courts.
115. Some people say that prisoners are being
released when they should not be, when they are dangerous and
should be serving their full sentence. What would be the Home
Office response to that?
(Sir David Omand) The Home Office response would be
that those were all considerations which were extensively debated
at the time the legislation was passed. This scheme is operating
exactly according to the parameters that were laid down for the
scheme. At any one time we now have about 2,000 young offenders
on curfew.
116. Yes.
(Sir David Omand) If you like, that is a rough measure
of prison places saved at any one time. The positive benefit has
been shown that this is a very sensible use of resources, to use
this system to allow slightly earlier release than might otherwise
be possible.
117. I suppose to some degree whether or not
such a programme is tarnished or otherwise will depend on how
many re-offend while they are on curfew. If they do, of course,
they will be immediately sent back to prison, will they not?
(Sir David Omand) Yes, of course, and there have been
cases where individuals have re-offended. It was never part of
the scheme that it was possible to make risk assessments such
that you could totally rule out the risk of re-offending. Overall
the benefit to society from the scheme itself and from the reductions
in re-offending of having offenders re-integrated will more than
outweigh the very small number of offences that have been committed
by those who have broken the conditions of their Home Detention
Curfew.
118. Nevertheless it could be said it may be
unfortunate, but life is what it is, that if someone commits a
particularly terrible crime, murder or otherwise, while on Home
Detention Curfew, the whole system would be brought into question,
would it not?
(Sir David Omand) That is why we have insisted on
the most scrupulous assessment of individual cases by prison governors
before individuals are put on Home Detention Curfew. So far their
cautious judgments have been borne out by the success of the scheme.
119. I am in favour of that system, although
I recognise some of the dangers. There was a target, if it can
be described as such, to try and make sure a prisoner spends an
average of four hours a week on what was described as purposeful
activity in 2000/2001. Is that being met? We have, in fact, the
figures for 1998/1999 and 1999/2000. Perhaps you can send us the
latest information on purposeful activity? That has a great deal
to do, would you not agree, with what degree of rehabilitation
takes place as far as the offenders are concerned?
(Sir David Omand) Certainly.[5]
I would particularly single out the work on education, as well
as the running of offending behaviour programmes.
3 See Annex. Back
4
See Annex. Back
5
See Annex. Back
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