Examination of witnesses (Questions 140
- 159)
TUESDAY 11 JULY 2000
SIR DAVID
OMAND, KCB, MR
ROBERT FULTON
and MR STEPHEN
BOYS SMITH
140. For a period of years?
(Sir David Omand) For a period. I will let the Committee
have a note. I do not have the details in front of me.
141. I appreciate notes, but this is a rather
important point, if only because there have been reports that
it is suggested that there should be a new kind of appointment,
prison and probation service combined. Is that news to you?
(Sir David Omand) No. That is something that ministers
have said they wish to consider.
142. They are considering it.
(Sir David Omand) They have taken no decision on that.
143. If I come back the question of the Chief
Inspector of Prisons, he has been asked to stay on officially?
(Sir David Omand) Officially.
144. He has responded by saying—
(Sir David Omand) As far as I am aware he wishes to
continue to serve.
145. Does that mean he will be offered the job
of Chief Inspector of Prisons and Probation Services?
(Sir David Omand) I cannot answer a hypothetical question
like that, nor am I comfortable discussing the conditions of an
individual in front of the Committee. I would rather discuss the
matter with Sir David and put a note to the Committee.
146. I can understand you being uncomfortable,
and I am sorry if you are uncomfortable, I am only pressing this
matter—and I certainly do not want to cause you or your
two colleagues any embarrassment at all—since you agree
that Sir David is doing an excellent job, fearlessly, as you described.
I am just concerned there will come a position in the near future
that Sir David will not be able to carry on doing the job that
he is doing. If I am pressing you, I want to be quite clear how
long he is being asked to stay on.
(Sir David Omand) That is a matter for the Home Secretary,
who has invited him to stay on.
147. Until when?
(Sir David Omand) Until certainly the middle of next
year. I do not have the exact date. I would rather give you a
note on the details of that.
Chairman
148. Can I help? We do know that he has been
reappointed up until July of next year.
(Sir David Omand) I do not have the date.
149. That was given to us by him and by the
Minister. It seems somewhat sensitive, Sir David.
(Sir David Omand) The contract between an individual
and the Department is not something I would normally debate with
the Committee without first clearing my lines with the individual
concerned. As a courtesy, I would owe that to Sir David.
Mr Winnick
150. We will receive your note and we will be
very pleased to receive it. We will see whether we shall pursue
it, it is up to the Committee, at ministerial level.
(Sir David Omand) I do emphasise, no decision has
been taken by ministers on the future of the two inspectorates
and whether they should have any form of closer association.
Mr Winnick: I do not have a suspicious mind,
unlike my two colleagues on my right here, but when I hear a very
senior civil servant saying, "No decision has been reached
. . ."—
Chairman
151. Sir David, Sir David Ramsbotham has told
us the extension of his appointment is until July next year. Coincidentally,
this happens to be when the current Inspectorate of Probation
Services comes to the end of his appointment. That would fit in
with the context of what we know about ministers considering what
to do about it.
(Sir David Omand) It seems to me to be entirely reasonable.
Mr Stinchcombe
152. One very quick question on prisons. I speak
as a member of the Board of Trustees of the Prison Reform Trust
and, as such, I am deeply concerned about the escalating numbers
of people in prisons, which seems to be likely to escalate further,
with more mandatory sentences, with more anti-social behavioural
orders, with three strikes and you are out, and a number of other
measures. What initiatives do the Home Office intend to take to
stop the ever-increasing numbers of prisoners in this country?
(Sir David Omand) We have a duty to house those who
are committed to custody by the courts. Your question is really
about the framework of criminal justice rather than policies in
relation to prison itself. The rapid rise in the prison population
over the last twenty years has slowed. The current figure of just
over 65,000 is a little higher than this time last year, by a
few hundred. Given the current sentencing practices of the court
and the framework of the law, I would expect that figure to go
up further over the next few years, but not rapidly. I would hesitate
before endorsing language which implied we were in for a very
major rapid increase in prisons.
153. We still have people in prison who have
not been convicted of any violent crime, sometimes simply because
they have not paid a fine.
(Sir David Omand) That is one of the final resorts
that is open to a court for a persistent offender, but it would
be rare that a court would order a custodial sentence, unless
there was a particular reason, for example a string of offending
behaviour.
Mr Stinchcombe: Thank you.
Chairman
154. Can I ask you, Sir David, why on earth
does it take so long, after the Chief Inspector of Prisons puts
in a report on an inspection, for it to be published? I am thinking
of the report on Blantyre House, which was inspected in January,
the report in the early part of March, here it is now midway through
July and still not published. Why? What on earth takes so long
about it? I understand it has got to go to the Prison Service
but one would have thought it could have been done in a matter
of days. We go on about efficiency gains. What went wrong here?
(Sir David Omand) I will take the message back that
the Committee would like to see the reports published more quickly.
155. It leads to all sorts of suspicions, does
it not, in particular cases?
(Sir David Omand) The Inspectorate themselves like
to check very carefully all the facts they put in their sometimes
very long reports.
156. They are seemingly very thorough.
(Sir David Omand) They need to be very thorough because
they are subjected nowadays to very intense external scrutiny
and I think it is right they need to have the opportunity to check
many of the facts which are in the reports, which they do very
thoroughly. So it is a proper process but I take away the thought
as to whether it could be speeded up.
157. It has been known for at least a couple
of weeks, if not longer, that it will be published on 25 July.
If it has been known for that period, does that mean we cannot
find a printer to get that job done? Why is there even that delay?
At the end of that long process there is another three-week delay,
"Okay, we can publish it in three weeks' time." Even
in this place we have managed to get things published overnight.
(Sir David Omand) I do not know why the timetable
for that report is as it is.
Chairman: Could you give us a note on that.[8]
That would be very helpful. Mrs Dean?
Mrs Dean
158. I would like to take you to Aim 5—building
a fair and prosperous society. What areas of Home Office activity
have been identified as possibly conflicting with the provisions
of the European Convention on Human Rights?
(Sir David Omand) The main area that will be well-known
to the House is that of intrusive surveillance where we felt it
necessary to put on a statutory basis the activities of the police
and intelligence agencies, and you are aware of the Bill working
its way through the Houses of Parliament. That is perhaps the
biggest single area. The Terrorism Bill has also provided the
opportunity to ensure that our law in that area is entirely consistent.
I think those are the two major areas that spring to mind where
we have had to take remedial action by way of legislation. I am
pleased to say that most of the administrative practices of the
Office have survived the intense scrutiny that we gave them to
see whether they were compatible. It would have been surprising
if they had not been because we have been subject to the European
Convention for many years but we did need to check those out,
particularly in the area of immigration and nationality.
(Mr Boys Smith) There are some aspects of the Immigration
Rules where we will need to make not statutory changes but procedural
changes in order to ensure full compliance. That exercise is now
in hand.
159. Are the areas you mentioned the ones you
would expect to face legal challenges from the Human Rights Act?
(Sir David Omand) I think those are the main areas,
particularly immigration and nationality.
(Mr Boys Smith) Where there are concepts to do with
the family and family reunion deep in the Immigration Rules, one
would expect that, which is why there has been this careful scrutiny.
8 See Annex. Back
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