Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 79)
TUESDAY 17 OCTOBER 2000
MR DAVID
COTTLE, MRS
MOLLY TIPPLES,
LADY CLARKE,
DR BRIAN
HUGO AND
MS HELEN
WARRINER
60. It lives in one of the prisoner's pockets,
yes.
(Lady Clarke) Yes. I think in photography the idea
was you pinned on something, a specific object, and then did a
project on it, and he—quite rightly in my opinion—thought
the key was rather big in his life and did his project on that.
(Mrs Tipples) Incidentally, at Albany, which is I
understand a Category B prison, they have a photographic club
there because in the Koestler Awards they have won prizes. We
have not had time to check up on how they run it, but they have
photography there and they are Cat B.
Chairman: At one stage it seemed to me it was
the Director-General of the Prison Service who actively had a
hand in deciding what is and what is not available in the education
department at Blantyre House. I was assured he did not do this
in every prison but paid particular attention to Blantyre House,
but we will perhaps question him about that tomorrow.
Mr Winnick
61. Can you tell me when you were notified about
the search?
(Mr Cottle) My phone was engaged but Dr Hugo was rung
at I think ten past, five past, ten on the night of the 5th.
62. On Friday 5 May?
(Mr Cottle) Yes.
Mr Howarth
63. At night time?
(Mr Cottle) Yes.
Mr Winnick
64. You were notified by whom?
(Dr Hugo) I was notified by the incoming governor,
Chris Bartlett.
65. That the search was going to take place?
(Dr Hugo) That he was going to carry out a search
that night and were we interested. I then contacted our chairman
because he had come off the phone by then.
66. And you came to the prison?
(Dr Hugo) And came to the prison.
67. As I understand it, you left at 12.30 am,
is that correct?
(Dr Hugo) Yes.
68. Why did you leave then, apart from the fact
it is a rather late hour?
(Mr Cottle) We were told, or we were encouraged, to
leave on the basis we were satisfied, we had seen the search in
progress, which we had seen in the accommodation. We were satisfied
it was being carried out in a reasonably civilised manner.
69. It was being carried out in a civilised
manner?
(Mr Cottle) We did not see anything— you know,
it was not civilised in Blantyre terms but it was—
70. I understand what you mean.
(Mr Cottle) It was a thorough, rigorous search going
on.
(Dr Hugo) I think we should point out we had been
informed this search was not meant to be exactly a high-powered,
silver commander, type raid, that it was in fact a search requested
by the incoming governor because he thought security had been
lax and therefore we came round in fact and talked to—
71. How many of you came round?
(Dr Hugo) The two of us, we were together. We arrived
at the prison at the same time, about 20 past 10, conducted to
Chris Bartlett who told us what was happening, and we later, because
he did not know his way round the prison, took him with us and
saw the search. We were very impressed with the exemplary behaviour
of our men, the prisoners, who were behaving extremely well. I
think we both said, "Please be sensible, don't do anything",
and they didn't.
72. While you were present it was not being
conducted in a way which would be the subject of any criticism?
(Dr Hugo) As far as we could tell.
(Mrs Tipples) You were not told there was a command
centre.
(Dr Hugo) No.
73. Having left, when did you discover, how
soon the following day, actually the same day, because it was
the 6th—
(Dr Hugo) I came in in the morning and there had obviously
been a massive disturbance.
74. Tell us in your own words, what did you
discover?
(Dr Hugo) I think I am right in saying I came into
the prison at approximately 11 o'clock in the morning, went round
to the men and was told, "Why weren't you here last night?".
I said, "I was", and they said, "Have you seen
the chapel?" I said, "What has happened to the chapel?",
and they said, "It's sacrilege, they have broken down the
doors."
75. The door was broken down?
(Dr Hugo) Yes. I therefore conducted a complete tour
of the prison, looking at the damage and reporting on it into
a pocket memo which I carried with me. The chapel door into the
chaplain's room had been smashed down and two other doors. I was
astonished; it was quite unnecessary. I then later heard the medical
centre doors had been broken down and, sure enough, they had.
76. Were you shocked?
(Dr Hugo) I was appalled. In fact later, when I saw
the new governor, I told him and his second governor that I was
shocked at the chaos I saw and it appeared to me totally unnecessary.
77. Do you think you were in any way deceived
in the sense that while you were present with your colleague all
was well, whatever may have been the reason for the search it
was being conducted in a way which, as you say, would be subject
to no criticism, and then what went on afterwards was when the
two of you were away?
(Dr Hugo) We were deceived in that we were not informed
by anybody, and it is a duty that the board of visitors should
be informed, where the commander of the exercise is. In fact we
did not know there was a headquarters command post here in this
building, we did not know there were mobile jails parked outside
here. All we knew was there had been a raid on the prison premises
and there were officers and dog teams in here.
(Mr Cottle) We should have also been recalled at the
time the doors were going to be broken down and certainly when
the prisoners were removed. That is standard practice. It was
not adhered to that night. We both had telephones with us by our
beds—in fact Brian even slept in a separate room.
(Dr Hugo) There is one possible answer to this in
that Brian Pollett, whom we had been talking to, left at 1 o'clock
taking Chris Bartlett with him. It could have been a communications
problem but I must admit I am a bit suspicious we were not informed
on the premises.
78. As far as the chaplain's office is concerned,
we have seen the repaired door, it was broken down and money was
taken. I accept it was later given back, but is that not the position,
that money was taken?
(Dr Hugo) Money was found there and removed.
79. And anything else taken? Was there not some
religious thing taken?
(Dr Hugo) That I am not aware of. I know when I looked
in, the door was broken, the sacramental wine was there open—I
am not saying it had been opened in the sense of being drunk but
the whole place was left open. One of the things which did worry
me was that apparently no attempt had been made, as was said just
now, to secure the medical centre, which the doors leading from
the prisoners' cells or rooms were directly in continuity with.
It was not repaired and in fact it was only when one of our governors
who had been dismissed came in, as far as I can make out, that
any attempt was made to secure the premises.
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