Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 116)
TUESDAY 17 OCTOBER 2000
MR DAVID
COTTLE, MRS
MOLLY TIPPLES,
LADY CLARKE,
DR BRIAN
HUGO AND
MS HELEN
WARRINER
100. Do you feel, personally, that your integrity
has been, in a sense, called into question by the way in which
you have been treated, in, perhaps, something of a rough-shod
manner?
(Mr Cottle) Yes, I think we certainly have not been
kept as fully informed as we would have liked. Thee has been misinformation,
or exaggeration—like escape equipment, being a trowel and
a spirit level, or whatever. Yes, it is exaggeration. Finds of
drugs, which, again, came in the local paper. We are talking about
absolute minuscule quantities.
101. Can I ask one final question: do you think
that Mr McLennan-Murray's regime could have been interpreted by
some as being soft? One prisoner said to me today that he felt
that he was a fair man but if you stepped outside the rules you
were out. Those were the words of a prisoner, but would you say
that is justified—
(Dr Hugo) Absolutely correct.
102. So you do not think that those who take,
perhaps, a more robust line on crime and punishment would be justified
in seeing this as something of a soft regime?
(Mrs Tipples) No. He was very robust in that if anyone
stepped out of line there was not a second chance; it was not
"Naughty boy, don't do that again"; you were told the
reason you were being shipped out and you were shipped out. We,
as a Board, were not called by men who thought they were being
shipped out unfairly, ever. They accepted it.
(Dr Hugo) The governor got information and gave information
down the line from many sources. So he was fully aware of what
was happening in his prison.
(Lady Clarke) I am sure you would have been told by
prisoners this is not a soft option. It looks it from the outside,
but it is much easier to hack it from a prison where all your
decisions are made for you. This is not a soft option.
(Dr Hugo) Psychologically, coming to Blantyre is a
terrific shock. It takes the average man something like 4 to 6
weeks to get out of the standard prison atmosphere and behaviour
pattern. We had a board from another prison which sends a lot
of prisoners to us who came, rather suspicious and thought we
were making a lot of fuss about our prison, and when they had
been round that afternoon they wrote and said "We are amazed
at seeing our men four weeks on; they are different people."
(Mrs Tipples) It was Maidstone. They actually wrote
to Martin Narey to say how impressed they were with men they had
seen with their heads down keeping out of trouble in order to
get to Blantyre, showing them round here, saying what they were
doing and looking to the future. We did not prompt that letter.
That was unprompted.
Mr Cawsey
103. You mentioned Mr Narey there. I want to
just refer to something he put in written submission to us, which
said that "Since 5 May, although much has been said about
a loss of Blantyre House's ethos, performance figures strongly
suggest that what is best about Blantyre has been maintained and,
in some key areas, enhanced." You all have great experience
of Blantyre House both before and after 5 May. What is your reaction
to that comment?
(Mr Cottle) In terms of performance figures, if you
talk about escapes and abscondments, they have gone up. I am not
sure what performance figures have been improved. As has just
been mentioned there, searches—you could put those down
as performance figures. If you want to judge a regime that way
then—
104. It would not be your opinion?
(Mr Cottle) No, not at all.
105. He finishes off his submission saying he
believes Blantyre House today is a safer prison where the public
are at reduced risk and preparation for temporary release and
eventual permanent release is likely to be more effective. How
would you respond to that submission?
(Mr Cottle) It is not a safer prison, because if you
have got more abscondments—and we have had one escape—therefore
you have a less happy, content, if you like, population. So if
you want to interpret it that way you could say a less content
population could be interpreted as a high risk. There is not any
risk from people who have been through Blantyre. Certainly not
to the local population or community. If you say there is less
risk, you could interpret that as an increase in security, again,
but yes, if you keep everybody in and never let anyone out there
is less risk.
(Mrs Tipples) As Alan Rogers said, if you lock them
all up and get on with it you can have a safe jail.
106. Mr Rogers also referred to the optimism
and enthusiasm of people in Blantyre House prior to 5 May. In
your visits would you agree that there has been a plummeting of
morale?
(Mr Cottle) Absolutely.
(Mrs Tipples) Yes.
107. Finally (from me) then, obviously one of
the things you have impressed on us today is the community support
there is for Blantyre House. How do you feel that has been affected
and do you feel community support may fall if things are not addressed?
(Dr Hugo) It is too early to tell.
(Mrs Tipples) They have seen all the things in the
press, but we as a Board have not spent our time sending notes
out to the press and giving statements. We did not see that as
helpful. They are waiting on what comes forward from this inquiry.
They are bemused and are biding their time. They are prepared
to accept Blantyre as it was and hope that it will be as it was.
Mr Malins
108. Mr Cottle, I understand that this raid
in May cost £26,000 altogether, of which over £6,000
was damage. You have already confirmed to my colleague that morale
has plummeted since that time amongst prisoners and amongst volunteers
like you. Have you any experience of whether the morale of the
staff has gone up or down?
(Mr Cottle) That has gone down as well. Blantyre House—a
resettlement prison like this—is a community, which, again,
is something which some people do not understand. It is a community
which comes quite close. It has to run on trust and people do
get quite close, which means it actually involves more professionalism
because your adjustment has to be that much more acute.
109. So the disaster in May has damaged everybody.
(Mr Cottle) Yes.
(Mrs Tipples) Absolutely.
(Dr Hugo) I think it was interesting that someone
remarked to me that it is not very often in a prison that the
governor leaves and the prisoners and prison officers unite in
condemning his dismissal.
Mr Linton
110. Mrs Tipples mentioned Mencap. I understand
there is an annual Mencap day when the prisoners help to raise
a lot of money.
(Mrs Tipples) There was. We did not have one this
year. It was cancelled.
111. Could you see any justification for the
cancellation?
(Mrs Tipples) I think, having a new governor coming
in, in the situation that he came in, he found it very difficult
to know how to cope with it, so it was probably the easiest option
for him.
112. How much money has this raised? Has this
been an annual event and well-liked in the area?
(Mrs Tipples) Very popular, yes. They bring in mentally
handicapped children and adults from all round. Last time I saw
a Tower Hamlets bus coming, with their carers. The men go out,
they work, they get the firms they work for to give money so that
the funds are there, then they provide a funfair, they provide
all the food, the kitchen staff, and they had a big wheel and
things. I went up on it with one of the chaps. He looked down
from the top and he said "Look. You see those people. I think
I have had a tough life but I would not change places. I am going
to make darned sure that when I get out I give something back".
He had not been in here long, but by going out, raising the money,
spending it on something like that, seeing all the enjoyment they
were able to give other people is all part of re-humanising them
(I do not think that is the right word), but putting them back
into society feeling they can give something as well as taking
something.
113. Thank you. Going back to another point.
When we were talking about the raid it was mentioned that you
did not realise at the time that there were enough vans parked
outside—or mobile jails—to take the entire prison
population away. Do you have any idea why they brought that many
vans with them, or what the intention might have been?
(Mr Cottle) Not unless they were going, I suppose—if
there was a riot you could empty the place. Or if you found the
place was awash with drugs and everyone proved positive you could
put them in the vans and take them all away. That is all I can
imagine. I cannot see what other use they were for.
(Dr Hugo) I think, also, it was thought there would
be provocation and that there would be an outburst from the men,
I gather. I am sorry, this is hearsay and nothing more, but some
prison officers coming over were told our men were rioting before
they got here. I cannot swear to it but I was told by somebody
who I rely on. I think they thought there would be a major incident.
114. Thank you. Last point: as a Board of Visitors
you obviously take pride in the fact that you feel that the prison
was (at least) as you said a pioneering prison and in the forefront
of the resettlement philosophy of prisons. Do you feel there has
been a kind of failure of courage in the Prison Service in not
supporting that pioneering spirit in the way that you feel it
should be?
(Mr Cottle) Absolutely. I think the Prison Service
is in the business, by and large, of keeping people in and making
sure they do not escape. A lot of people pay lip service to resettlement
work, but when it comes down to the bravery and innovation that
is needed then they are a bit lacking. With Blantyre there is
a tendency to say "Oh yes, this category C business. We have
category C, therefore we can apply category C security measures."
If you are going to run resettlement you really need to take it
out of this business and, maybe, form a new category, allowing
it to be category R with sub-categories in it, so that resettlement
work can progress. Because it is innovative, because it works
on continual risk assessment, adjustment and so forth it needs
that freedom to progress and develop.
(Mrs Tipples) At the end of the day, the prisoners
who have come here after long sentences—not short sentences—are
going to be released, so the better prepared they are the better
it is for society.
Chairman
115. Mr Cottle, can I ask you: are you aware
of any prisoner who has faced either a disciplinary or a criminal
charge as a result of the raid?
(Mr Cottle) No.
116. Are you aware of any prison officer who
has either been put on a disciplinary or a criminal charge as
a result of the raid?
(Mr Cottle) No.
Chairman: Thank you. Can I thank you all very
much for your help with this inquiry. May we now turn to the Chaplaincy
and the teachers.
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